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AA UTG facing aggro on flop - 1st Hand of Turney - No Reads
wager9
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July 4, 2016 - 6:24 pm
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Blinds 50-100. We all have starting stacks of 25000.

V1 is 40 yo Asian Man – clean cut
V2 is 45 yo White woman
V3 is 27 yo Black guy wearing shades

This is the very 1st hand. I get AA UTG and raise to 300

V1 and V2 and V3 call.

POT= 1050

Flop: 578

I bet 700. V1 calls. V2 raises to 2200…V3 folds.

What is best play here IYO?

Foucault

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July 4, 2016 - 10:37 pm
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Fold. Also, their positions would be more relevant to know than their ethnicities.

almofadinhas
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July 4, 2016 - 11:06 pm
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This deep you can consider AA for overpair as a marginal hand, depend on specific reads to play for stack with only overpair 250bb deep, and even then, is more like bluff catch.

wager9
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July 5, 2016 - 5:28 am
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Foucault said
Fold. Also, their positions would be more relevant to know than their ethnicities.  

Yeah I forgot to put the positions in – sorry I was tired.

V1 was MP, V2 was right next to him and V3 was CO.

So… would you bet the flop and fold to re-raise or check the flop and try to get to a cheap showdown?

Foucault

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July 5, 2016 - 11:19 am
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It’s close. With the Ah, I’d be a little more inclined to check and call, but I think bet-folding is probably best, especially with this hand. It’s VERY important to emphasize that checking flop does not automatically mean you have to or should go all the way to showdown no matter what. You often will not get to showdown after checking the flop. That isn’t necessarily bad or an indication that you should have done something differently. 

Don’t get too wrapped up in the fact that you have Aces. Poker isn’t all about pre-flop starting hands. This spot isn’t so different from holding AQ on a T62 flop. There’s a fair chance you still have the best hand, but it doesn’t have that much value to it, and it may be tough to play going forwards. You just have to accept that you got a bad flop and make the best of it.

MovieFX
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July 7, 2016 - 12:50 pm
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It is a minor point perhaps, but being the first hand of a tourney with no reads also means no one has a read on us. It also means there are no established standard open sizes for the table. Also considering how deep we are and how ready everyone is to play, I’d open for more like 500. Even 700 is probably not killing all action. It might be personal preference but I like to play extra TAG early on. Some local live tourneys here start at 25/50 with 8k-12k stacks and it isn’t uncommon to see opens to 200-300 in the first level.

Is the flop a clear fold? It seems close to me.

On one hand: I think there are a lot of small over-pairs and 8x trying to protect, some pairs with combo draws and 2-pair hands that might take this line as well as some draws that might decide to play it aggressively and test the c-bet. A blank over-card might check-through, especially Broadways. In other words, aren’t there still a lot of hands we are ahead of that just don’t want to see another card? Also, while probably overly optimistic, two-pairs can be counterfeited.

On the other hand, I can see a bunch of the hands that have a piece of the flop double-barreling if something like a 2diamond comes out.

I’m not saying I’d play it fast, but I’d consider floating once to re-evaluate. Maybe floating here is a leak and should be saved for times where there is a read to help sway the decision?

I’m very interested in hearing more thoughts on this!

theginger45

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July 9, 2016 - 2:05 am
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Bet-folding seems okay. It’s also worth noting that GTO play on these flops involves a lot of check-raising with overpairs in heads-up pots, so I think we can at least consider checking this flop with the intent of check-calling or check-raising depending on the action ahead of us. It’s actually a pretty great spot to check-raise if you get, say, a bet and two folds, because you get a ton of value from 99-JJ in those spots.

Definitely agree with Andrew that you left out a lot of pertinent information and included some rather useless stuff. I can’t imagine how your responses to V3’s decisions would possibly change if he was a white guy wearing shades, for example.

theginger45

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July 9, 2016 - 2:25 am
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WRT above post, I don’t think floating this raise is a good idea. There are minimum 17 cards on the turn that render us unable to continue versus a bet of what would probably be at least 3k (eight non-Ace hearts, three offsuit nines, three offsuit sixes and three offsuit fours) so that’s roughly 35% of the time we’re very uncomfortable on the turn, and there’s still one villain left to act.

We definitely can’t continue in the (admittedly unlikely) event that V1 decides to repop it to 6k or something, so we probably only get to see another card something like 95% of the time rather than 100%. We have to play all future streets out of position, which means that even if V2 does have some kind of a draw or a hand we’re ahead of, they get to realise all of their equity for free at any time they choose – another thing we don’t like.

So let’s say we get to see a turn card 95% of the time, it’s only heads-up about maybe 75% of the time, and roughly 65% of that is a turn card we actually like, we’re looking at only ~50% of the time we get to see a turn card where we can even consider continuing versus another bet.

When you consider that some % of the time we’re going to see a good turn card but then have it checked through and see a bad river card, plus 35% of the time that we do manage to check-call the turn we’re going to see a bad river card, there are a lot of bad scenarios unfolding here. I think bet-folding is the right play on the flop.

WRT preflop sizing, I don’t like the idea of going 500 or 700. Admittedly we don’t know what the tourney is or whether we can expect there to be good players at the table, but going so big with our raises makes it completely correct for other players to make big folds against us. It’s not like players are going to be saying to themselves, “well, this raise is massive and his range is likely to be super strong here, but I guess he’s decided for us that 500 is going to be the standard raise sizing at this table”. It’s just not possible to get away with raises that big unless you’re confident the table is full of bad players.

If I sit down at a tournament table and someone opens to 700 UTG first hand, I am going to be making a note of their next raise sizing – as soon as they open to a different sizing, they’re giving away information about their ranges in both spots. You don’t want to open to a massive sizing with the first hand because it’s going to affect the way people perceive your ranges later, and it’s going to cost you money right there and then by making it correct for people to fold more.

almofadinhas
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July 9, 2016 - 11:10 am
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theginger45 said
WRT above post, I don’t think floating this raise is a good idea. There are minimum 17 cards on the turn that render us unable to continue versus a bet of what would probably be at least 3k (eight non-Ace hearts, three offsuit nines, three offsuit sixes and three offsuit fours) so that’s roughly 35% of the time we’re very uncomfortable on the turn, and there’s still one villain left to act.

You are assuming that 100% of the time one of the players have two hearts cards for a flush draw?

If V2 only have call the flop bet, V3 fold, lets say an Ahit the turn, hero bets and get two calls, x OTR (non 4, 6, 9, or full house or quads for hero) that would be bet fold? check fold? check call? If 4,6 or 9 hit hero just give up?

Sorry to expand this, I was thinking some other ways this hand could go. Thanks!!

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