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(7 votes) 
September 21, 2014
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Hello TPErs,
About an hour into a live $350 tournament I pick up AA directly utg. Blinds are 50/100 and I have starting stack ~35k as does most of the table. I limp in utg for 100 and get two immediate callers. Luckily the button makes it 500 (just what im hoping for) and sb calls and then the bb makes it 1600!!!…I think if i repop it my hand is completely exposed as AA or KK!!! If i flat im hoping only the button comes along and i keep my AA kinda hidden and see a flop against two opponents. I decided to flat the 1600 and two other limpers dip out… being typical Borgata tourny, button and sb call!!! So its four of us to the flop and it comes K82 with two spades. Sb checks and bb makes it 3650…I am next to act, so i reraise to 8900 hoping to isolate him and maybe get it all in if he rejams. After my reraise to 8900, the button folds and sb jams about 30k more into the pot and bb folds to me…Soooo its a pretty big bet and I tank for a minute and ultimately make the call hoping hes on the nut flush draw which is the only hand i can make sense of. He tables A10ss for nfd and it bricks out for my AA and i scoop a big pot early on. Was this situation way to risky? In the future should I repop the bb and just expose my strength and take down a much smaller pot or was this line ok???
Thanks to anyone who responds!!!
August 4, 2014
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I used to play them like that. Repop/expose and be happy to take down a little pot. But Im not doing that any more after studying the game more. Flatting looks like you are set mining most of the time. Especially if you have AA, you are sure you have the best hand going into the flop. When other people hits top pair or they already have overpair to the board, they mostly panic and just wanna take down the pot and fire a big bet. After you call that bet, they go even more crazy and ship. And most of the times, you will make sure you are ahead. I was thinking to get only 1 caller with AA, KK, but now Im looking to get 2 into the pot and play it big.
Also, I dont get married to the cards. If I know they are ahead, I give up on them. Another words, they are just like other cards for me.
September 21, 2014
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I did this with KK in the same tournament about six hour in at another table against a young lady…I limped early mid position with KK and she raised her button…i then basically min raised her and then checked a flop of q105 rainbow and she checked behind …then i fired the turn which was a 6 and still on a pretty dry board and she jammed kq into me and i won…was happy that i played these two hands this way bc any other of my lines were not getting paid surely…well not as much… I read once that you actually do want up to two players to see flops with you when you hold AA or KK…it was mad mike caro stating this sooo it cant be too aweful of a line. anyways thanks for responding NeverAA!!!
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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I applaud the creativity, but I can't say that I love this line. The thing is that when you have Aces pre-flop, you have the nuts. After the flop, you usually don't. So although you may get more action by seeing the flop, that doesn't mean you are inducing more mistakes from your opponents. Although you're a solid favorite against the nut flush draw on the flop, you're a much bigger favorite if you get it in preflop against AK or KK. The thing about the nuts is that it's OK to play it strongly because usually your opponents will have trouble folding second best hands even when they suspect that you are beat. The BB has already told you he likes his hand when 3-bets pre, so I think you should be trying to get it in now rather than wait until the flop, which could easily be scary for him. What if he has QQ and was ready to stack off pre but then a K flops? Or he has AK and is ready to stack off pre but he whiffs the flop? Or he has 99 and doesn't put money in on Q85 but stacks you on K92? I think you're giving your opponents too much credit for hand reading and discipline. Worst case scenario, winning a good-sized pot immediately is not such a terrible outcome even if everyone folds to your 4-bet, when the alternative is letting them see a flop for free. And to be honest, when you limp UTG and then cold call a 3-bet, you aren't really disguising your hand that well to a good hand reader anyway.
September 21, 2014
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You are absolutelty right Foucault! And thank you very much for the reply. When the hand was over, the bb, who made the preflop three bet, told me he had JJ. And, judging by his character, he may have, but I doubt it, five bet it all in preflop and I would have attained roughly the same pot size with a much greater edge once the money was in the middle. Nevertheless, I am likely to win the pot either way. I rethought about that hand many many times and was torn between the possible long run outcomes and the creativity, which as you stated, and I agree again, that cold calling the three bet wasn't that creative as any keen observer would have me on the tightest range now. Looking back, I understand that this is too risky and that the correct move would be to four bet. Foucault, may I ask you about one last detail? After the bb makes the three bet to 1600 that puts 3050 in the pot and I am thinking about now four betting to ~5300. This is what my intuition tells me at my current level. Would this size be appropriate? Should I shave a little off considering the situation, or maybe even take the raise higher? Again, thanks so much for your insight on this hand.
August 4, 2014
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I just realized this is the ask the pros section so Im not sure if only pros can answer these. So, sorry if I made a mistake.
Back to the subject, I just want to make it clear that I would flat in certain situations when the initial raise is already big and I can get all of it in at the end of 3 streets. Also, when Im in position. And most importantly, depending on the player.
For example, there is a lot of fish out there to bet4x the pot from early position when they normally limp or minraise. so their range will be very limited. I would say QQ and up. I sometimes minraise them pre and they take care of the rest.
But against a reg, when I three bet him, my hand will be face up. So, I flat in position then rope a dope.
Also there are spots where there are a lot of limpers and you can play this hand kind of like a squeeze. I would bet the same amount I would like squeezing with a KJo into 3,4 limpers or minraise then calls. This makes my hand looked like a squeeze, but we eventually are happy to go all the way.
And endgame play is different. Most of the time I push those below 12-13bbs just like I would do with the other hands in my pushing range.
All in all, I dont think there is one good way for me to play premium pairs. However, most of the time I would actually like to play them and get max value, instead of three betting and getting a fold or playing them scared.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Attrix,
5300 is WAY too big, especially if you are in position. Your range is so strong, and the SPR will be so low if you calls your 4bet, that you really don’t need to worry too much about the pot odds you’re giving him. This will also make it tougher for him to get away from second-best hands. I’d make it about 4000.
July 12, 2013
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I think when you say “when I 3b him my hand is face up”. This is a bit of a problem. It seems like you’re 3b is very unbalanced then. If you are only gonna limp and 3b QQ+ you definitely aren’t 3b enough. You should have some other hands you can do this with… 78s, 89s, 910s… These types of hands. And just a last note… Playing premium hands, raising is never bad. : )
September 21, 2014
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It would have been the fourth bet lapp if I decided to bet the AA again…I completely agree that my range is quite unbalanced. At this point, I dont know how comfortable I would be limping 78s 89s ect and then three or four betting these out of position. You are totally correct in that if I limp with the plans on repopping someone, its usually QQ+. I will only limp here with QQ+ about 10-15%…so usually I play those hands in early position pretty straight forward…I wont be cold calling a three bet utg with AA anymore…its gonna be reraised and played less foolishly!!! Thanks for the insight lapp3r30!!!
July 10, 2013
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lapp3r30 said:
…If you are only gonna limp and 3b QQ+ you definitely aren't 3b enough. You should have some other hands you can do this with… 78s, 89s, 910s… These types of hands…
I'm going to be a sychopantic shill/suckup for Foucault here and say that there's a brief but thought-provoking mention of this concept (limp-backraising with small sc's) in his excellent Thinking Poker Premium Podcasts(tm).
I will also suggest that there is inconsistency between this:
Attrix said:
…I think if i repop it my hand is completely exposed as AA or KK!!! …
…and this:
Attrix said:
…I dont know how comfortable I would be limping 78s 89s ect and then three or four betting these out of position…
It seems like you're worried that opponents are way too likely to fold if you “repop” with AA/KK but if that's true then you should be pretty comfortable 3- or 4-betting with 87s. (And I realize I'm just restating the balance issue)
When I used to limp-reraise with AA more often, I remember that sick feeling that comes when you get even more action than you were hoping for, but stacks are still so deep that you don't want to turn your AA face up by springing the trap you were planning all along, etc etc. I think that 300BB deep the main value of AA is in getting KK all-in-preflop, rather than winning a massive pot from JJ post-flop. That deep AA starts to have really nasty reverse implied odds.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Nice post, huge, saved me the time of writing up the same. And thanks for the sycophancy!
TPE Pro
December 30, 2013
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In theory I very much like Andrew and Attrix suggestion of having a balance in your limp/raise range if you're gonna elect to limp/raise AA from EP sometimes. In practice, I'd like to remind everyone that this is a $350 live MTT and that balance is incredibly overrated here. Again, in a vacuum—I love it. In Borgata playing live—we're out thinking ourselves.
4bet that puppy
July 10, 2013
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Foucault said:
Nice post, huge, saved me the time of writing up the same. And thanks for the sycophancy!
Any time.
MovesLikeDarvin said:
In theory I very much like Andrew and Attrix suggestion of having a balance in your limp/raise range if you're gonna elect to limp/raise AA from EP sometimes. In practice, I'd like to remind everyone that this is a $350 live MTT and that balance is incredibly overrated here. Again, in a vacuum—I love it. In Borgata playing live—we're out thinking ourselves.
4bet that puppy
I think the beautiful thing about this particular issue is that maybe it doesn't matter. I don't mean it doesn't matter whether you're balanced (though that's a valid and interesting debate in a $350 Borgata tournament) … I mean it doesn't matter whether it matters. With either AA or 87s, if you 4-bet here with the intention of betting almost any flop (given some sort of read that the BB is capable of 3-betting light), there's a pretty good chance that opponents will fold either preflop (great result for 87s, not terrible for AA) or on the flop (fantastic result for either hand). If I look down at AA UTG and the poker gods whisper in my ear “you can limp-4-bet this hand and pick up 28BB without seeing a flop” I'm going to fist-pump-go-for-it and never feel a moment's regret about turning my hand face-up.
Having written that I realize that a problem with applying the same logic to 87s is that you don't have blockers to your opponents having AA, so maybe you could argue that once you're actually facing a cold 3-bet it might be time to give up on your original plan of backraising. But I think that plan should always be pretty flexible anyway – ie you're limping 87s UTG because (A) it's not a bad hand to see a cheap multi-way flop with, (B) depending on who raises, who calls, their sizing etc, it might be a good opportunity to limp-3-bet representing AA, and (C) you might get aggro opponents to think you're a total fish for open-limping [credit for (C) goes to the aforementioned TP premium podcasts, but is only a tiny fractional hint of the wisdom contained therein].
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