View Plans & Pricing

If you are signed in and are seeing this message, please be sure you have selected a user name in My Profile. The forum requires it.
A A A
Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
sp_TopicIcon
A8o shove or fold?
folding_aces_pre_yo
High Stakes Mario Kart Propping
Members
Forum Posts: 1133
Member Since:
September 14, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
September 8, 2019 - 2:47 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

#Game No : 1115668576
***** 888poker Hand History for Game 1115668576 *****
1,000/2,000 Blinds No Limit Holdem – ***
Tournament #143275150 $15 + $1.50 – Table #21 9 Max (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 2: Saint600 ( 30,344 )
Seat 3: london_ace ( 22,253 )
Seat 4: KB_74 ( 51,604 )
Seat 5: obwan77 ( 22,885 )
Seat 6: x90x60x90x ( 47,766 )
Seat 7: Marma07 ( 52,729 )
Seat 9: iGuiltuloss ( 18,050 )
Seat 10: Junyer87 ( 44,257 )
Junyer87 posts ante [250]
london_ace posts ante [250]
Marma07 posts ante [250]
obwan77 posts ante [250]
x90x60x90x posts ante [250]
iGuiltuloss posts ante [250]
Saint600 posts ante [250]
KB_74 posts ante [250]
Marma07 posts small blind [1,000]
iGuiltuloss posts big blind [2,000]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to london_ace [ 8d, As ]
Junyer87 folds
Saint600 folds
london_ace folds
KB_74 calls [2,000]
obwan77 folds
x90x60x90x raises [6,180]
Marma07 folds
iGuiltuloss folds
KB_74 folds

 

hey all, I think this was a tight fold imo lol….

DuckinDaDeck
Hunting Max EV
Sunday Major
Members
Forum Posts: 284
Member Since:
February 8, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
September 10, 2019 - 9:46 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

At 11bb in MP, A8o is borderline but I’d lean towards a fold. At 10bb it is profitable to shove but even then it is the weakest offsuit Ace that I’d consider shoving. I’d say it’s a clear shove in the HJ at <=12bb (and marginal but okay even at 15bb) but one extra player behind you makes a big difference.

As a general rule, I fold my weakest profitable shoves at tables that are tighter/more passive than average. Conversely, I’ll shove slightly wider at tables that are tough/aggro, especially if I’m almost never getting to RFI in later positions. So I’d be shoving at a particularly tough table, but I think it’s slightly better to fold as your standard move.

3for3
High Stakes Shark
Members
Forum Posts: 201
Member Since:
July 24, 2018
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
September 10, 2019 - 10:56 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

DDD.  I think you have it backwards.  At weak tables, players don’t call shoves nearly as often as they should; at strong tables they are more likely to know Nash ranges and play correctly.

DuckinDaDeck
Hunting Max EV
Sunday Major
Members
Forum Posts: 284
Member Since:
February 8, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
September 10, 2019 - 11:54 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Debatable, but I see your point. I’m playing now so can’t really dive deeper into my (potentially flawed) reasoning but I’ll come back to this.

folding_aces_pre_yo
High Stakes Mario Kart Propping
Members
Forum Posts: 1133
Member Since:
September 14, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
September 12, 2019 - 6:14 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Hey, what about on loose tables? Should we be shoving wider or tighter?  Or just go with nash ranges? 

DuckinDaDeck
Hunting Max EV
Sunday Major
Members
Forum Posts: 284
Member Since:
February 8, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
September 12, 2019 - 12:23 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

On looser tables I’d want to shove tighter than Nash, fold equity is what makes weaker parts of Nash ranges profitable. That’s an important part of PKO strategy, especially once your bounty gets larger. You end up wanting to shove way less middling to low cards (eg. T8s,87s) but still shove almost the same number of high card hands.

To the question of whether to shove tighter or looser on soft tables vs. tough tables. I can see decent arguments in either direction. I fully agree that on weaker tables (ie. overly tight to shoves, not splashy/loose) our shove is more profitable in isolation. My reasoning for the opposite line of thinking is that we won’t get nearly as many profitable shoving opportunities on strong tables, and probably need to shove fairly close to Nash if we’re using a push/fold strategy. I often prefer passing on shoves that are < +0.25bb but start going thinner if I’m rarely getting RFI opportunities.

I will absolutely shove wider than nash in CO or later positions if blinds are nitty, but it starts getting harder to exploit those tendencies with more players behind. 

At 11bb, A8o is a barely profitable shove in the Lojack vs Nash calling ranges (0.17bb), worse than all of KJo (0.18), A2s (0.19), K9s (0.19), and T9s (0.27), which are still borderline shoves.

At 14bb, A8o has similar value (0.19bb) in the Hijack. Even at 9bb, it is less profitable from UTG+2 (0.15bb).

folding_aces_pre_yo
High Stakes Mario Kart Propping
Members
Forum Posts: 1133
Member Since:
September 14, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
September 14, 2019 - 3:24 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Thanks your input man. Yesterday i folded KQo W/10 bb from utg1 blinds were getting bigger on next hand but yh do u think that was a tight fold? The table was an average table though id say more on tighter side….

DuckinDaDeck
Hunting Max EV
Sunday Major
Members
Forum Posts: 284
Member Since:
February 8, 2017
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
September 14, 2019 - 10:27 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

That’s probably a little too tight, even if the blinds aren’t going up next hand. In my charts, KQo is winning 0.31bb shoving 10bb from UTG+1.

It’s slightly worse than all of the suited broadways (QTs is the weakest at 0.34bb) but better than hands like A8s (0.25bb), 44 (0.22bb), T9s (0.18bb), K9s (0.14bb), and A9o (- 0.02bb).

I should correct something from my earlier post. I usually want edges >= 0.25bb when shoving 13+bb (at 12bb I stop using a min-raise range and only push/fold), but this is not only wanting to make sure my edge is large enough. Because I’m min-raising the top of my ranges, I become exploitable if I shove the bottom parts of Nash ranges since my overall shoving range will be too weak.

If you’re only push/folding, you’re able to take thinner edges and probably don’t want to pass on anything that’s at least 0.15bb profitable at <=15bb.

At <=10bb I’d want to take any shove that’s winning at least 0.05bb.

On my charts that is 33+,A7s+,A5s,ATo+,K9s+,KJo+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s. If you want to play a bit tighter, the worst of those hands are KJo(0.06), 33(0.09), and Q9s(0.11).

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 2780

Currently Online:
37 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

bennymacca: 2616

Foucault: 2067

folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133

praetor: 1033

theginger45: 924

P-aire 146: 832

Turbulence: 768

The Riceman: 731

duggs: 591

florianm1: 588

Newest Members:

sdmathis89

ne0x00

adrianvaida2525

Anteeater

Laggro

Philbro

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 24

Topics: 12705

Posts: 75003

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1063

Members: 12007

Moderators: 2

Admins: 5

Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos

Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1