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November 9, 2012
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Is this a spot I should have avoided? Is my turn bet necessary?
At this point of the tourney we re-drew seats so half my table I hadn’t played with all day. I wasn’t afraid of the bubble and I was trying to remain active by small ball steal attempts in position. A guy two seats to my left 3bet shove 50BB into me 2 of my last 3 steal attempts within 3 orbits. The other time, I 2.5x from the HJ and got called by the BB. He checked shoved on my Cbet and I muck. So overall my stack was slowly dwindling. I went from 60BB to 34BB leading into this hand…
The guy to my right, on the BTN was probably late 40’s and from the east coast. I noticed him miss a value spot on the river a few hands ago. He checked back a strong hand, HU. He then said “that’s at least how I play poker.” I figured him to be an old school, long ball, straightforward type.
[Live] $125 Daily NLHE tourney – Aria
Entries: 75
Paying out: 1st – 7th
Players left: 15
Table 1 – eight handed
Blinds: 800/1600/200
Seat 1 – BTN (90K): raise to 5K
Seat 2 – SB/Hero (55K): [Ad5d] call 5K
Seat 3 – BB (25K): fold
Seat 4: fold
Seat 5: fold
Seat 6: fold
Seat 7: fold
Seat 8: fold
Pot: 13200
FLOP:
8c 4d 9s
Seat 1 – BTN: call 7500
Seat 2 – SB/Hero: bet 7500
Pot: 28,200
Turn:
Jc
Seat 1 – BTN: call
Seat 2 – SB/Hero: bet 42,500 all-in
July 11, 2012
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Fold pre.
I wouldn't bother trying to 3b pre. His sizing is so big, you can't make it 10.5-11k and expect many folds live. 3bet sizing would have be close to 10x and more or less commits you (it depends obv). I don't like flatting here out of position.
Decent board to donk lead, but I'm giving up when we don't pick up any added equity on the turn.
Not a fan of the huge jam on the turn either. What exactly are you representing? Easy check/fold on the turn imo. If you really feel the need to scoop this pot, check/jam the turn (doubt this is profitable).
November 12, 2012
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If you view the villain as a straight forward type, then his btn open doesn’t have to indicate strength. 3 betting large preflop might allow u to take it down right there or u will at least be able to polarize his range there. If he 4bets u can easily release.
As played, his call of ur flop lead should alert you IMO. Maybe check the turn, although that basically shuts it down for you but what are you beating at this point?
July 11, 2012
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Will Ramirez said:
If you view the villain as a straight forward type, then his btn open doesn't have to indicate strength. 3 betting large preflop might allow u to take it down right there or u will at least be able to polarize his range there. If he 4bets u can easily release.
In general, we really can't 3b/fold here profitably. 10-12k isn't going to drum up enough FE + we are out of position postflop, and 3betting to anything over 15500ish with intentionis of folding is fundamentally incorrect (I occasionally bend the rules but def not here).
Will Ramirez said:
As played, his call of ur flop lead should alert you IMO. Maybe check the turn, although that basically shuts it down for you but what are you beating at this point?
Ax is often the best hand
November 12, 2012
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Will Ramirez said:
If you view the villain as a straight forward type, then his btn open doesn’t have to indicate strength. 3 betting large preflop might allow u to take it down right there or u will at least be able to polarize his range there. If he 4bets u can easily release.
In general, we really can’t 3b/fold here profitably. 10-12k isn’t going to drum up enough FE + we are out of position postflop, and 3betting to anything over 15500ish with intentionis of folding is fundamentally incorrect (I occasionally bend the rules but def not here).
I’d think it gives us a decent amount of fold equity, if we 3b to 10-12k were left with about 26-28bb. Is this not profitable? Yes we’re out of poss n if he flats the 3b it’s a tough pot to play postflop.
Will Ramirez said:
As played, his call of ur flop lead should alert you IMO. Maybe check the turn, although that basically shuts it down for you but what are you beating at this point?
Ax is often the best hand
You think his A5dd is good here after the villain calls our turn shove?
July 11, 2012
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Will Ramirez said:
I'd think it gives us a decent amount of fold equity, if we 3b to 10-12k were left with about 26-28bb. Is this not profitable? Yes we're out of poss n if he flats the 3b it's a tough pot to play postflop.
Are we 3betting for value or to exploit BU wide opening range w/ace blocker? Neither of these are appealing to me at a liveament FT
No this is not likley to be profitable. Like I said, 10-12k may not give us enough FE, and 15k+ would be bad as well (by the math, 3b/folding after putting over 27-30% of our stack in the middle is incorrect)
July 11, 2012
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^^^ Not a hard and fast rule. 28-30% is just a good generic tipping point.
I think you shold just be folding this. Your reads pretty much say that bluffing this dude is a bad idea. The turn i also don't get, your not repping a whole lotta hands here and id probably call you with as little as 77 k8 ya know, some button steal garbabge hand that smacks this board. As im posting this I am starting to think that a 3/fold might be good as he probably won't play back at you unless he has a monster.
Still don't jam the turn though.
November 12, 2012
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Will Ramirez said:
I’d think it gives us a decent amount of fold equity, if we 3b to 10-12k were left with about 26-28bb. Is this not profitable? Yes we’re out of poss n if he flats the 3b it’s a tough pot to play postflop.
Are we 3betting for value or to exploit BU wide opening range w/ace blocker? Neither of these are appealing to me at a liveament FT
No this is not likley to be profitable. Like I said, 10-12k may not give us enough FE, and 15k+ would be bad as well (by the math, 3b/folding after putting over 27-30% of our stack in the middle is incorrect)
Yes I think we can 3b here for value esp from a btn open with the ace-blocker. I’m not sure u may be right that 3bet/folding 27-30% of our stack is bad but I don’t think it’s terrible being left with 27bb. If he 4b it’s easy fold and I think the 3b takes it down a lot of times. I like a fold here out of pos over anything else tho. I think the live aspect helps here somewhat, it’s close to the money and ppl find folds with moderate hands here in liveaments imo
August 23, 2012
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I think that this spot is either a 3b or fold preflop given his 3x and 34bb effective. I do not think we can profitably flat this hand OOP given effective stacks. If you percieve his 3x's to be mainly value hands then it is definelty a fold. If not, I would 3b/f around 12k and play postflop if he flats in position. Either way 3b~fold>>>>flat.
July 3, 2010
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I agree with fold pre. 3 bet shoving is total spew. 3 betting to any other size isn't good for reasons already stated.
Flatting pre isn't the worst, but our hand doesn't flop all that well so you're essentially hoping to flop a draw more than an Ace and then get it in from there.
WIth this flop, doubt I have lead. I'd rather c/r and rep the type of speculative hands that could have flatted and connected decently.
But, this is a $125 daily MTT – about as soft as it gets in the live world. The bottom line is you should never need to get put into weird spots in tournaments like these when there's heaps of fish and dead money everywhere around you.
November 3, 2012
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The idea behind turning up the agression as the bubble approaches is the right one, but everything has to be right for it, I really don't the opponent you chose to bully, the situation itself and your stack size are the right combination for your play. I'd fold pre and move on.
November 9, 2012
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I wanted to 3bet pre. I didnt think I could size a bet with enough FE that was gonna be less than 25% of my stack. I then decided to flat and lead on a dry flop that missed broadway type hands. Flop came with only straight possibilties, no flush. His call on the flop should have slowed me down but I didn't want to give up this pot. I could have worked with 26BB if I c-fold turn. He turned over Q10 for the gutshot on the turn.
This was my first hand posting and thanks for the feedback, learned from all your responses. THANKS. Im new to all of this, much appreciated.
Im gonna avoid spots like this…..in this case, if I was gonna get all my chips in, c-r flop wouldve been better.
November 19, 2012
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Hi, good discussion in here, but I didn't notice much discussion on the read of the villian given at the start of the post.
“The guy to my right, on the BTN was probably late 40’s and from the east coast. I noticed him miss a value spot on the river a few hands ago. He checked back a strong hand, HU. He then said “that’s at least how I play poker.” I figured him to be an old school, long ball, straightforward type.”
Given the whole 'older, straighforward' type we have him cast as, along with the fact that he checked back missing value with a strong hand, I'd take the 3.1x raise pre this late in the tourny as him having a pretty strong hand, the flat on the flop says to me he probably has alot of showdown value, but is scared to 3bet, like before, missing a chance to get more value. This would definitely be enough for me to check fold and keep my 26bb.
But also agree with folding pre.
November 14, 2012
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With the fact that you’ve been spewing chips to him so far, I have to ask, do you think that mate he has a tell on you? If he’d smashed me like that a couple of orbits in a row, I’d be tightening up my range against him and only playing premiums whenever he got involved in a hand. And finally, bigdogpckt5s has an approach he uses with weak suited aces that I tend to agree with, play them like small pocket pairs, limp in, and hope to smash the flop. If you don’t, let it go. And because he misses value, there’s a chance you could check it down to the river and have a better chance if hitting.
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