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A question about raise folding?
I have been finding myself in tricky situations at the 10 to
25BB stage when i open for like 2.3x from MP and i get re shipped by the button
for 15 BB stack,
My question is should i always be raise calling with 20bb
stack and under even if I open with a hand like KJo from MP with 18BB ??
Some help would be great i am having trouble with this.
Thanks slip.
June 11, 2010
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I can tell you for me with a 10-25bb stack I am not raise/calling anything except for perhaps AA/KK looking for the spaz at the table to shove over me. Anything else that I am going to play is going to be to the death. If I pick up a playable hand I follow RonFezBuddy's most sage advice “You sir get The Stack!”.
Are you saying you should not try to steal blinds when under
20 bb with light hands?
And just wait for premium hands?
If I am open raising with a 10-25bb stack first thing I will do is pay attention to the stack sizes of the people I am trying to steal from. If I think they have a good re-shove stack, I will only play the hands I am willing to go all-in with, and if that is the case, you might as well be shoving instead imo.
Stack sizes of others help define my play in certain circumstances and at certain points of the tournaments.
The way I like to manage that size of stack is I tighten up my opening range especially from earlier position, and look for resteal spots focusing on larger stacks around the 30-50bb range with suited connectors, face cards, pairs, and like A/9+. Be very mindful of short stacks behind(they have a wider range usually adjust accordingly), the openers bet sizing(I like to take notice of their sizing if they end up showing down a hand or two, you can exploit pretty easy in alot of players), and speed of betting(faster bets sometimes shows they didn't think about it that much which in some players reflects an average hand I usually try and notice this with show down of the and another player). lemme know whatcha think if you give it a try.
TPE Management
March 17, 2010
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great advice in this thread and I think flgtb's post is a great guideline.
Generally once you get <20bbs I'd just be looking for shove or resteal spots, not spots to open fold. If you get called and have to fold its' just too much damage to your stack. When I have KJs with 18bbs from LP I just jam it. You get your full equity from the hand if called and you get called so infrequently that the fold equity is a big part of making it +EV.
You CAN raise fold <20bbs but I would only do it in great steal spots from LP with hands that have no little showdown value against straightforward players. For example if you have 20bbs from CO with 69o and everyone's stack behind you is around 30bbs you can open and comfortably fold if you whiff the flop when called or if shoved on PF. If you have KJs or something like that you are going to get into too much trouble post flop. That said, if you just folded that spot it's probably a better play for the stack preservation i listed previously.
Thank you guys for all your help,
def a leak pluged in my game thanks again.
June 11, 2010
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slipknot said:
Are you saying you should not try to steal blinds when under
20 bb with light hands?And just wait for premium hands?
I can tell you that I am probably one of the wider shovers in the TPE nation. I am not looking to mix up with EP and MP opens, as this gets to be a dicey game as to guessing their ranges and trying to figure out where I am pre relative to their ranges. I am really looking to pick on LP opens and the blinds and with that in mind, I am willing to shove as far down as 92s depending on the situation and circumstance. I think the sub 20 bb stack for me is one that I am going all the way with or no where at all and I am looking for spots where I am expecting high fold percentages as I don't really want to get called (unless I got something good, but I don't change my play based on hand). A lot of my type of play in this range though is setup with generating Fear Equity prior to getting this short. I will typically later in tourneys or when I am between 25-30bb will be looking to 3bet shove LP opens and the blinds a lot and basically setup an image that I am a high aggressive/high pressure jerk. I think an underestimated aspect of push/fold mode is developing an image where the table is afraid to deal with you. I know a lot of tight players complain that they get called off light when they shove small and I think in the low/micro/mid areas a lot of that stems from the fact that you aren't on the radar. Having been active and pushing the envelope you transition people into a mode where they tighten up instictively because they want to try to trap you. It is a delicate balancing act, but it is something that is very essential to my game. I am working on a video set that I am going to upload to my member blog hopefully over the weekend that shows some of how this works in my game. I'll let you know when it goes up so you can see a little more of what I mean in case this isn't clear.
May 26, 2010
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“My question is should i always be raise calling with 20bb
stack and under even if I open with a hand like KJo from MP with 18BB ??”
– Absolutly NOT imo. Using the term 'always' in poker is a bad idea but I understand what you are trying to say. I think alot of this depends on the table and the stacks around you.
– I like to go with BigDogs “20 bb rule” which basically says that when you get to 20bb's you either go to the felt with whatever hand your playing / opening as he hates to raise fold a 20bb stack or you look for 3-bet shove spots with 20bb's to keep your head above water. Obv there are exceptions to the rule and you have to take into account the other players left to act and their stack sizes.
RonFezBuddy said it best though.
“You CAN raise fold <20bbs but I would only do it in great steal spots
from LP with hands that have no little showdown value against
straightforward players. For example if you have 20bbs from CO with 69o
and everyone's stack behind you is around 30bbs you can open and
comfortably fold if you whiff the flop when called or if shoved on PF.
If you have KJs or something like that you are going to get into too
much trouble post flop. That said, if you just folded that spot it's
probably a better play for the stack preservation i listed previously.”
July 3, 2010
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flgtb786 said:
The way I like to manage that size of stack is I tighten up my opening range especially from earlier position, and look for resteal spots focusing on larger stacks around the 30-50bb range with suited connectors, face cards, pairs, and like A/9+. Be very mindful of short stacks behind(they have a wider range usually adjust accordingly), the openers bet sizing(I like to take notice of their sizing if they end up showing down a hand or two, you can exploit pretty easy in alot of players), and speed of betting(faster bets sometimes shows they didn't think about it that much which in some players reflects an average hand I usually try and notice this with show down of the and another player). lemme know whatcha think if you give it a try.
That's a sexy reply right there. I couldn't have said it better because I am not that smart.
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