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January 5, 2015
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$265 LIVE ightly at RIO at WSOP
All of these I have about a 19-20bb stack
It s the middle stages of the tourney. Antes have kicked in. Table is fairy straight forward with varying stack sizes. No one is below 15bb and most are at about 20-40bb. One guy has about 60bb.
Hand 1: I raise 2.5 BB with 6
6
from UTG.
a. Would you ever open shove here with 66 (and ~20bb)?
b. If we raise and get shoved on would you call an AI from a non-NIT player?
Hand 2: UTG is average player and has about 25bb and limps. Folds to me in HJ and I have AQ
. Players in CO and BTN are all fairly tight and straight forward and are both at about 40bb +. Blinds are new to table and 25-30bb.
a. Would you raise or shove here?
b. If you raise, and BTN, who plays TAGgy straight forward shoves do we call?
Hand 3: UTG raises to 2bb. 14bb stack shoves in MP and we have A
Q in HJ.
a. Do we GII or fold?
Thanks guys 
February 5, 2015
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I’m at work so can’t get into it too much.
1). Shamefully equity calculations are something I have neglected thus far in my poker career…I am only just starting to do them. First off I am never open shoving 20BB with anything. The only exception may be around certain bubble or other high ICM spots. So far as calling a 3bet shove over our raise, I think you just have to look at it with Equilab. Put V on a range for 3betting and see what odds you are getting…and see if it is +ev to call. I am just getting into these myself so I am no expert. Equilab is free.
2) I am only shoving if the pot is 20% or more of my stack. Calling a B shove is player (villain) dependent. Again you can put B on a range for 3bet shoving and see what your equity looks like with ace/ Queen, and compare it to the pot odds you are getting.
3) Is also villain dependent. If UTG is a nit I pass probably, especially if he has us covered. It’s close though.
If you want an app for your phone to play around with equity calculations I use the free Poker Equity Calculator.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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I’ll give these a try.
1.
a. Don’t think I would ever have a 20bb open-shove range UTG except in extreme ICM spots. However, I disagree with Riceman in that there are plenty of spots (mostly in LP or the SB) where open-shoving 20bb is completely fine, so it’s mostly position that’s the main factor here. I also think your raise sizing is too big – not much reason to 2.5x it at 20bb stacks, I think 2x or 2.2x is fine.
b. You need to be putting your opponents on ranges and making your decisions according to that. There are no hard and fast rules about whether to call a shove here or not. If you purely categorise players as ‘nit’ or ‘non-nit’, that’s too general and won’t get you particularly far.
2.
a. Shove seems good. Not really deep enough to just raise since AQo is unlikely to be able to realise much of its equity on many flops and you don’t induce much from the limper.
b. Once again, it depends on BTN’s range. If you think he might shove with AJ, it’s tough to fold AQo. Generally I think calling is probably not great, since your raise looks pretty strong if you just 3x it over a limper with a 20bb stack.
3. As before, it depends on the players’ ranges. If UTG has a wide range and MP knows this, MP is shoving wider, so it becomes a call. If UTG is tight and MP is tight, it’s a fold because their ranges are unlikely to be wide. If somewhere in between, I imagine it’s very marginal – I’d lean fold, since most random villains tend to give UTG raisers a lot of credit and thus I doubt MP is always shoving all his AJ there.
February 5, 2015
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Hey Matt…whilst I know there are hands that can be open shoved with 20bb’s from every position, I wonder in what non-high ICM spots it would be optimal to shove 20 bb’s. Whenever I see somebody play this way I know they usually have a far from premium holding…they are obviously not trying to induce right?
I’m not being contrary, I really would like to know when I should be doing this outside of ICM spots…thanks,
Mark.
Edit: I think I realised the answer as I wrote the question…
I guess when you want to take the play away from villain(s) whilst still playing an unexploitable range?
Hey! I never said I was good at this game!
January 20, 2014
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Good questions wager, this is Steve Barton. Did we meet out at the WSOP? I think we are playing the same tournaments. Were you at the TPE booth?
Ok, questions. I agree with what Matt and Rice said on questions 1 & 3. So I’ll just say “Ditto” on those two. Question 2 however, I feel a bit different.
Hand 2: UTG is average player and has about 25bb and limps. Folds to me in HJ and I have AQ. Players in CO and BTN are all fairly tight and straight forward and are both at about 40bb +. Blinds are new to table and 25-30bb.
a. Would you raise or shove here?
b. If you raise, and BTN, who plays TAGgy straight forward shoves do we call?
a) I would raise here, for several reasons. First I want to get position for the rest of the hand, and folding out the CO and BTN is a good result. And second, we want to get heads up with the “average player”. Isolate the fish. We can then play our AQ most of the time heads up with the limper, who is a fish, and we are in position. I think this a scenario where we make money.
I don’t like shoving here because if anyone wakes up with a hand, I don’t think they are calling you with AJ or less. That means you are flipping or crushed. Everyone behind you has you covered, including the blinds and the limper. I like making a raise to like 3.2x, and seeing what happens.
b) If the button is TAGgy and straight forward shoves, I would lean towards folding. You’re raise looks pretty strong. You raised it to an UTG limper with 4 players left to act. If he comes over the top of that with less than AQ, good play by him. I’m not calling there.
Thanks for the post, keep up the grind, and good luck out there!!!
~Steve
February 5, 2015
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Yes regarding question 2 I was only saying we need to consider the size of the pot relative to our stack before we decide whether a shove is viable.
I agree with Steve that a raise is in order, unless the pot amounts to 20% of our stack (I am shopping so haven’t worked out whether it does), in which case I may well be shoving.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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The Riceman said
Hey Matt…whilst I know there are hands that can be open shoved with 20bb’s from every position, I wonder in what non-high ICM spots it would be optimal to shove 20 bb’s. Whenever I see somebody play this way I know they usually have a far from premium holding…they are obviously not trying to induce right?I’m not being contrary, I really would like to know when I should be doing this outside of ICM spots…thanks,
Mark.
Edit: I think I realised the answer as I wrote the question…
I guess when you want to take the play away from villain(s) whilst still playing an unexploitable range?
Hey! I never said I was good at this game!
Generally it’s a good idea to employ split ranges in late position on ~20bb stacks – raise-call the top, raise-fold some trash, and shove the middle. The reason being that if you’re shoving a range of some suited Ax, suited broadways, small pairs etc then villains are very unlikely to exploit that range even if they know it reasonably accurately – they would need to be calling it off with hands like Q8s, which nobody does for 20bb.
It’s not really about ‘taking the play away from villain’, it’s more about allowing ourselves to continue inducing action from villain with our stronger hands without forcing ourselves to start raise-folding hands that could be profitable all-in shoves.
February 5, 2015
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Man…you should write a book!
I thought of a possible idea for a book whilst listening to the Thinking Poker podcast with Moreno(?)…
“Riceman’s Loser’s Manual”…
It takes my losing thought processes and gets commentary by top players on why I am (usually) wrong…
Would you like a guest slot?
February 20, 2015
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Does it come with a free pair of Suffice Dice?
February 5, 2015
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Lol Joel! You had me laughing all the way to work…in fact I had some kind of manic episode driving into work…I couldn’t stop giggling! I think my laughing fit was disproportionate to the situation… I kind of lost it there already this morning.
Sure…free pair of Rice ? Dice to every reader! The Rice ? Dice is an excellent idea as a chapter in the Riceman Loser’s Manual. I tell you something, that thread clarified my understanding of game theory even if it was useless to everybody else!
Loads of people are always telling me I should write…the last of whom was – believe it or not – a pilot who used to fly for Pablo Escobar in the 80’s…he owns a TV company now and asked me to write something for him…but all I ended up writing was some seedy lesbian drama…it was crap, and I knew it was crap as I was writing it…so I put it in the bin!
February 5, 2015
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BTW Matt talking of the Rice Dice ? I had a residual issue with something you said, it’s quite important to my ultimate understanding your thoughts about it… If you get a moment could you check the Rice Dice thread again please? It’s on page two.
Many thanks!
Mark.
May 19, 2016
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All of these I have about a 19-20bb stack
It s the middle stages of the tourney. Antes have kicked in. Table is fairy straight forward with varying stack sizes. No one is below 15bb and most are at about 20-40bb. One guy has about 60bb.
Hand 1: I raise 2.5 BB with 66 from UTG.
a. Would you ever open shove here with 66 (and ~20bb)?
b. If we raise and get shoved on would you call an AI from a non-NIT player?
a. Personally no, but come to think of it, I’ve pushed more with less though, gotta have a pretty good read on V, I’d say or did. Sometimes that doesn’t help either, it’s poker….that’s what I keep telling myself anyway.
b. If Hero raises (either a very strong hand or being a very bold person) from UTG with a 20BB stack and the V shoves….fold everything but AA, KK unless you like getting crushed or going the Races, and then KK may be iffy.
Hand 2: UTG is average player and has about 25bb and limps. Folds to me in HJ and I have AQ. Players in CO and BTN are all fairly tight and straight forward and are both at about 40bb +. Blinds are new to table and 25-30bb.
a. Would you raise or shove here?
b. If you raise, and BTN, who plays TAGgy straight forward shoves do we call?
a. Raise, definitely Raise, definitely….definitely. 4BB raise, You’ll know pretty quick about the straight up players. Personally don’t like to shove, know it’s part of the game though and do so when the circumstances warrant it, and of coarse the times that shouldn’t warrant it but somehow they end up there anyway.
b. with a 40BB stack, the BTN will raise more often than not if his holdings or player reads dictate him to do so, in my opinion. Now if he had say 10 to 15BB they are more app to shove.
Hand 3: UTG raises to 2bb. 14bb stack shoves in MP and we have AQ in HJ.
a. Do we GII or fold?
a. “a” is so lonely, down here hanging out with hand 3, just to be tossed into the muck as if it were a stool in a chamber pot…poor little “a” has no “b”
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