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PS $33 2R1A – not too long after add on:
Vill w about 40 bbs raised my cbet (99) on 424 2 diamond board
Only 12 hands on villain, seems a bit fishy though – alot of loose aggro weekend players like to raise paired suited boards like this, I'm thinking.
Maybe he flats pre w TT, prob 3bets JJ+
But I think there are a ton of fl dr's and bway combos and some air in his range that I might be ahead of at the moment. It makes sense to just get out of the way especially since the pot is starting to get pretty big and I only have a marginal pp and keep my 60+ bb stack in tack.
If he is holding a draw or overs, or air, his raise is a good one if I fold a better hand than his.
So does that mean a cbet is bad here, and a ch/call or ch/fold is better? But with this action and this board, a cbet seems like it would be super profitable.
Poker Stars $30 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t50/t100 Blinds + t10 – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
maxines dad (MP2): BB = 46.8, t4676
draqq (CO): BB = 125.6, t12558
ragenut (BTN): BB = 96.1, t9610
Thijsmans (SB): BB = 162.1, t16214
Kihlstr�BB): BB = 76.2, t7622
Pipedream17 (UTG): BB = 92.4, t9240
Betudontbet (UTG+1): BB = 152.6, t15255
Gags30 (UTG+2): BB = 122.4, t12240
Hero (MP1): BB = 69.9, t6990
Pre Flop: (t240) Hero is MP1 with 9
9
3 folds, Hero raises to t250, maxines dad calls t250, 3 folds, Kihlstr�alls t150
Flop: (t890) 4
2
4 (3 players)
Kihlstr�hecks, Hero bets t455, maxines dad raises to t1500, Kihlstr�olds,
these spots leave me always not knowing wt to do. i never know when im ahead here. i always assume im ahead giving pre flop action. his calling range could consist of 66-jj, which in that range only two of those pairs got us beat. ajs+, ak, aq, kjs+. i think prem's are raiseing here for value so i wont give him those ranges but its still a chance. as u mentioned u could bet fold here and preserve stack since we have no solid read on villian, or the play i really like here is to flat raise and jam any turn. but as i mentioned earlier these spots always cost me.
bjizz
bjizzle44 said:
these spots leave me always not knowing wt to do. i never know when im ahead here. i always assume im ahead giving pre flop action. his calling range could consist of 66-jj, which in that range only two of those pairs got us beat. ajs+, ak, aq, kjs+. i think prem's are raiseing here for value so i wont give him those ranges but its still a chance. as u mentioned u could bet fold here and preserve stack since we have no solid read on villian, or the play i really like here is to flat raise and jam any turn. but as i mentioned earlier these spots always cost me.
bjizz
btw, the cbet was the correct play. and u could definately cbet/fold and it not be too nitty. hate chk calling as i think its the worst option.
bjizz
June 11, 2010
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Biggest thing that I have changed in my game of late is my stance on expecting flush draws out there. If you look at a player who open raises about 12% of hands then the chance that you are facing flush on a monotone board is only about 1%. Loosening him up to 25% opening range and the number only goes up to about 4%. The board has two to a flush out there and a lot of players will try to represent it so in this case from a LAG opponent that is what I think you are most likely looking at. 4-2-4 doesn't really hit strongly with anyone range so I think he is trying to pluck off a perceived c-bet. Most likely you are facing 2 overs to the board and maybe 2 overcards to your PP, but that is hard to tell. I think you can take two credible lines here:
1. Re-raise his check-raise if you think this was an attack on your bet with air
2. Call the check-raise and re-evaluate on the turn.
I don't think I am folding at the flop here, I am going to at least the turn and seeing what he does there. Being OOP makes this a lot more difficult as you most likely aren't going to be getting through the turn to the river for free.
July 3, 2010
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I call and evaluate the turn. A lot of times your c-bet will be viewed as big unpaired broadway cards so I expect to get raised often by thinking players on a flop such as this one.
His raise sizing is interesting – it's more of a value size that wants a call. I feel like a flush draw or a worse pocket pair would raise you more in this spot.
FWIW this player has several 5 figure scores so I don't think he's going to get too out of line or spewy at 50/100 and playing out of position but you never know…
i would reraise him and figure where you are on the flop. He could be just making a move.
lespaulgman said:
1. Re-raise his check-raise if you think this was an attack on your bet with air
Why you want to re-raise when u think he c/r with air? Call and let him bluff off his stack at the turn.
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TPE Management
July 20, 2010
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so many cards crush you on the turn that i dont really like call. This is the exact flop you were looking for when betting 99 pre so i dont hate reraise on the turn, i doubt he has 22 or A4 but very well could have 2 overs and a flush draw which puts you behind 59-41 if you do decide to call check raise be prepared for a big laydown. tough spot imo
Yeah, I folded. ^^^^ Partly because of these reasons. If I call and evaluate, there are a lot of cards that could be bad for me on the turn. Even if I get a good card on the turn, and he doesn't give up betting, I still don't know where I'm at.
A very good player looked at this hand and said that you can't wait for only spots where you know where your at and disagreed with the fold.
If he was deeper, I may have cont'd with the hand because I felt like he was ready to play for his stack with that raise.
Jbizzlis' line of calling and jamming any turn card seems like the strongest way to play the hand if we did continue, though.
Why is flatting the check raise then jamming any turn possibly the best play? I am not saying that it is not the best play. Just trying to understand the benefits of the play.
June 25, 2010
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id probably put him all in on the flop, I don't like calling turn for the reasons ttwist states. We hate about half the deck+ on the turn, and can talk ourselves into a lot of incorrect folds. I guess he could be a fish who only 3-bets QQ+ and has you beat here, but he could also have something like 55-88 or the flush draw+ two overs. The only way you are behind here is if he flatted 22,44,TT or JJ. Personally i almost always 3-bet TT and JJ in that spot with position, but some people are different.
June 11, 2010
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marzipannase said:
lespaulgman said:
1. Re-raise his check-raise if you think this was an attack on your bet with air
Why you want to re-raise when u think he c/r with air? Call and let him bluff off his stack at the turn.
The reason I would consider this line is to eliminate the possibility of him getting away from a bad bluff. If you call the check/raise in the situation you give him time to either
1. Improve his hand to where he actually beats you
2. Let a card peel off that scares him away and shuts down any future value
3. Give him time to think about his move and slow down
If I think you have air and I believe you are trying to blow me off my hand I am going to do everything I can to get you caught up in the moment and see if I can get you to carry it too far.
shangobango said:
Why is flatting the check raise then jamming any turn possibly the best play? I am not saying that it is not the best play. Just trying to understand the benefits of the play.
I'm saying it's prob the strongest way to play the hand – I'm not sure exactly how to word it, let's see.
By making this play, it may be the most effective way to use your chips. I don't think villain has a monster here too often and barring that, the open shove will force him to a tough decision with any draw or middle pp. If you put yourself in his shoes, the shove could look like a draw that wants to end the hand right now, and I could see him calling with a worst pair than ours.
A while ago, someone gave me an exercise to work on – they told me in every hand you play, try to use every single chip the most effective way you can. It sounds easy but it's not. I found myself violating that thought many times but over time, it helped me make less chip bleeding plays like calling pre then just folding if u don't hit type hands or calling a raise pre then folding to a 3bet.
Putting to good use – that's what I mean about this play.
June 25, 2010
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I really think flatting the raise/jamming the turn is the worst possible play on this board and a huge leak. If you are committing your stack on the turn why would you not check call and let him keep his bluffs in his range? It also allows him to shove worse pairs he talks himself out of calling with, but even if he called every worse pair that he would shove turn with, taking the air hands out of his range by jamming is just passing up chips/cash money. Jamming isn't magically going to make him not have dominating pairs and sets, so either turn play you get owned by those hands, and even though I don't believe he is calling as many dominated pairs as he is shoving, for argument's sake lets say he is. You are committing your stack either way (shoving, or check calling) but if you shove, it is impossible for him to have air hands in his range, where as if you check call his shove a somewhat significant range of his hands are air, and your equity is substantially higher against this range.
Completely unrelated to the above point so I will put this down here, but anyone who gets out of line on the turn I assume to be super strong, as in turn check raise, or check call lead turn etc… so that is why I don't think you are keeping most of his dominated pairs in witha turn shove.
I think it's hard to say what is more profitable, ch/shoving or ch/calling the turn.
But, WITHOUT A READ, I really don't think bet/calling then ch/calling two more streets is the most profitable way to play this hand since he's going to have one or two overs a fair amount of times. Not to mention the times we let him get there when he's semi bluffing with a draw because we played the hand this way. Just my opinion, though.
mmfitter said:
But, WITHOUT A READ, I really don't think bet/calling then ch/calling two more streets is the most profitable way to play this hand since he's going to have one or two overs a fair amount of times. Not to mention the times we let him get there when he's semi bluffing with a draw because we played the hand this way. Just my opinion, though.
He has only one bullet left after we call flop (~2900 with ~3800 pott), so we dont have to call 2 streets.
June 25, 2010
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yeah I mean with different stack sizes this would be more of a debate IMO, but I don't see how you can make a case for donk jamming turn, when you know he is shoving it near 100%. You are getting your stack in either way, I just don't see why you would want to eliminate his bluffs/ draws/ possibly his worse pairs by shoving. You are doing much better against his shoving range IMO. He is going to still call with hands that have you beat everytime if you think he is calling with hands that you beat, so I don't see with how you described his range you wouldn't think check/calling is way better than shoving the turn. Basically two weeks ago I would be jamming turn, but I recently got the opportunity to talk over some spots with a really good cash player, and he saw me jam in a spot like this, with similar stacks, and he was like “why would you do that?” And I said, idk, seems like if he jams I am in a tough spot. And he told me that if I am committing my stack on the turn, check calling is infinately better than jamming, because shoving isn't going to make him fold hands we beat, so even if a very small amount of his range is air it has to be more profitable, because he will shove his air, but fold it to your shove. He will never be folding hands to your shove that have the proper equity against 99 basically. So he will correctly call AKdd in this spot almost every time. He probably wont fold his 55-88 either. I think with the stacks perfect for him to make a turn shove with his whole range, the check/call is a much better play.
I know what you're saying – I've become aware of this concept fairly recently myself and I'm slowly trying to work it into my game.
But I'm just saying it's a mistake using this thought process with this hand without a good read on your opponent.
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