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89o from BB multi way pot turned nuts...
lapp3r30
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November 23, 2013 - 9:50 pm
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So this is really early in the tournament.

 

Really pissed off with how I played this…

 

Poker Stars $2.00+$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t40/t80 Blinds + t10 – 9 players – View hand 2363881
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

UTG: BB = 31.3, t2505
UTG+1: BB = 65.6, t5250
UTG+2: BB = 157.0, t12561
MP1: BB = 34.8, t2780
MP2: BB = 37.4, t2990
CO: BB = 47.5, t3798
BTN: BB = 43.2, t3455
SB: BB = 46.0, t3681
Hero (BB): BB = 53.1, t4250

Pre Flop: (t210) Hero is BB with 8 of clubs 9 of spades
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t80, 1 fold, MP2 calls t80, 1 fold, BTN calls t80, 1 fold, Hero checks

Flop: (t450) T of spades 2 of clubs 6 of diamonds (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, BTN checks

Turn: (t450) 7 of hearts (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets t320, BTN folds, Hero calls t320, UTG+2 folds

 

So I was thinking of raising… But it just doesn't seem like he can be very strong, however it is a 3/4 pot bet.  So I didn't want him to fold out his worse hands and hope he continues on the river.

River: (t1090) 2 of diamonds (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets t960

 

So not a great card but not bad one. I check he bets as I planned… When he bet basically pot I planned on raising, but got to thinking I don't really know if he can do this with a worse hand.  And the hands that I want to get value from obviously seem really unlikely… 10 7, 67, A2, and he doesn't pot out 88 and 99… So can this ever be a fold?  Just a call?  Would you raise?  I know what I would do… Just really curious what others would do.. Thanks guys!

OneTime1Time
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November 24, 2013 - 1:21 am
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I'm not sure why you would ever consider folding here. If you are honestly concerned he rivered a full house(unlikely but I guess 77,66,22 can all be here), then just flat his bet. If you lose, you are back to a starting stack, not a big deal at this point in the tournament.

 

The much more likely scenario when you flat is you win and are off to a great start. Personally though, I'm check shoving this spot all day. He's just showing up with way too many hands that you have absoultey crushed way too often to not play this hand strong.

lapp3r30
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November 24, 2013 - 1:42 am
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OneTime1Time said:

I'm not sure why you would ever consider folding here. If you are honestly concerned he rivered a full house(unlikely but I guess 77,66,22 can all be here), then just flat his bet. If you lose, you are back to a starting stack, not a big deal at this point in the tournament.

 

The much more likely scenario when you flat is you win and are off to a great start. Personally though, I'm check shoving this spot all day. He's just showing up with way too many hands that you have absoultey crushed way too often to not play this hand strong.

Appreciate the reply… I disagree with some of it.  I agree I'm never folding.  What are these hands you think he c/r with that are worse though?  Way too many hands that I have absolutely crushed…??? I crush A2 and possibly 10 7… What else does he c/r?  I don't know about this guy… But I almost never see someone c/r 2 pair on a paired board.  Even though a 2 is almost never a part of someones range in this situation. 22 77 66 are a bigger part of his range… 1010 I'd expect him to raise pre…

OneTime1Time
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November 24, 2013 - 11:45 am
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I fully agree he will have raised 1010 pre. However, being that he wasn't the first limper in a 4 way pot, I would fully expect him to check hands like KT, QT, JT, T9 on the flop. I want to say he would do this for pot control, but his betting post flop does not indicate a desire to control the pot.  He is also going to have some air in his range, as well as 89. 

 

Your range also doesn't really look very strong here. You limped pre flop, check flop, and check call turn. Then check the river. This line is usually taken by someone who has showdown value and wants to get there as cheap as possible(a lot of guys will also block bet river with that type of hand). So your range really looks like A6, 88, 99, and weak 10x hands. 

 

You are right that 77, 66, 22 are a decent part of his range here. I guess I just never give guys credit for hands like that here. I personally feel that unless this is a strange betting line/amount for him, or there is a tell to base this decision off, it's shippy time. At least that's what I would do. I just run into guys too often early in a tournament who are spewing off WAY too light. 

Poking_Fun
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November 25, 2013 - 12:57 pm
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I think the only plausible hand that beats you in this spot is probably 77 for trip 7's that the villain turned as i would fully expect most players to raise with TT preflop versus a limp and if he had made trips on that flop I still expect him to bet and try to get some value from the hand as big hands do not come along too regular.

The only issue that I can see with check/shoving here is that I am not sure what can call you that you beat assuming you are in the hand versus a competent player. Having said that, this is a $2 tournament so as One Time says, guys will certainly stack off light in those spots if they are weak players. For example, a guy may check flop with a pair of Ts and then bet turn and river and end up pot committed due to his sizing so I think at this buy in I raise all-in but at higher buy ins I may well think that a call is better in this spot.

lapp3r30
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November 25, 2013 - 3:19 pm
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Fair enough… I mean. I just completely disagree that the buy in has that much of an impact. I play these things all the time… And like I said… You will almost never see, I will never say never lol, a check raise on a paired board w 2 pair… Just my observations. You even just said… ” the only problem w check/shoving is I dont know what hand we beat call us”… Then you go on to say its a $2 tournie so call it off.. I’m a bit confused… Let’s say this is the Big One Drop what do you do??

WizardZur
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November 25, 2013 - 3:38 pm
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TBH stealing the blinds/antes is such an integral part of my game that I play very conservatively pre-ante.  Basically, I'm trying to develop a tight image and also I want to survive to get to the antes.  Once I get to the antes I'm raising when its folded to me in MP/LP > 60% time and 3-betting light-this strategy has been very successful for me.  So how does that relate to this hand? I'm not really looking to build a massive pot necessarily.  Although I do think it is extremely likely that you have your opponent beat, given the weak line that you took, he probably thinks 2 pair is good. However, I'm not shoving in this spot.  I'm definitely just calling.  There's no real hand that you beat that can call a shove, it's mostly just getting worse hands to fold, and then on the off chance that he did river a full house that is a terrible result.  For me, it's a call for pot-control.  However, I do realize that sometimes I'm losing value that way.

 

*PS I only play large buy-in live so I honestly don't know what the online metagame is like.  In live tournaments, this is certainly just a call imo.

OneTime1Time
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November 25, 2013 - 6:04 pm
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I'm confused what check raise you are talking about… unless you are referring to you check raising and trying to think what the villain pays you off with. As I read the hand history, villain never raises once. In fact, no one raises. That alone puts this hand firmly in the micro category. 

 

That being said, I see guys stack off in spots like this with KT, QT all the time in early stage of buy ins all the way up to $55. I couldn't believe it until I really started to watch for it. A lot of people still play early stage tournaments really badly. 

 

To answer the question about if this was the One Drop… I can't say. I have never played anything near that stake. However, if this was the Sunday Million, I would be check shoving(assuming stack:blind ratio is the same). However, in a random 109$ vs a good reg, I'm more likely check calling in this spot(I would have played hand different though). So buy in does matter. I'm by no means saying that micro stake players are bad. I'm just saying there are a lot more bad players at that level than there are at Medium and up. Bad players are stacking off light here. 

Poking_Fun
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November 26, 2013 - 11:09 am
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lapp3r30 said:

Fair enough… I mean. I just completely disagree that the buy in has that much of an impact. I play these things all the time… And like I said… You will almost never see, I will never say never lol, a check raise on a paired board w 2 pair… Just my observations. You even just said… ” the only problem w check/shoving is I dont know what hand we beat call us”… Then you go on to say its a $2 tournie so call it off.. I'm a bit confused… Let's say this is the Big One Drop what do you do??

The buy-in absolutely has an impact. I have played all buy-in ranges from micro stakes right up to sunday majors and some £1k buy in live events in the UK and I can tell you now that I have seen way more people stacking off very light in the micro stakes than in bigger buy-ins. I am not sure they necessarily mean to stack off but they get pot committed due to bet sizing which may or may not have happened in this case. Bear in mind that this does not mean all micro players do this, but just more than you would see at high buy-ins.

At the end of the day, whether you call here or check/shove or fold probably depends on what you think of your opponent. If your opponent is a nit but competent then I would say calling is best. If your opponent is loose, aggro and bluffy then check/shove. I personally cannot and would not fold this hand given the way it was played out, particularly at low stakes.

If it was Big One Drop then I would make the call I expect because we have under represented our hand completely but at those stakes I suspect if you check shoved then you would only get called by a full house. Its more about whether you can get value from a worse hand and at low stakes it is possible but at high stakes highly unlikely.

I am guessing that the opponent turned up with a full house in this hand?

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