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88 on paired board facing turn shove
iball83
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December 16, 2013 - 11:40 am
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Poker Stars $3.00+$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t400/t800 Blinds + t125 – 9 players – View hand 2381660
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

MP2: BB = 14.4, t11554
CO: BB = 16.3, t13040
BTN: BB = 25.1, t20101
SB: BB = 11.7, t9372
Hero (BB): BB = 59.9, t47886
UTG: BB = 67.7, t54185
UTG+1: BB = 15.2, t12141
UTG+2: BB = 12.3, t9804
MP1: BB = 45.3, t36206

Pre Flop: (t2325) Hero is BB with 8 of hearts 8 of diamonds
6 folds, BTN raises to t2400, 1 fold, Hero calls t1600

Flop: (t6325) 5 of clubs K of clubs 2 of spades (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets t3200, Hero calls t3200

Turn: (t12725) K of spades (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets t14376 all in

 

This hand was in the $3.30 R on stars after the end of the re-buys not yet in the money. Only about 20 hands on the villain so no real read. He had opened once and flatted once without showing anything down.

 

I decided to flat his 3x from the button as I’m not sure how happy I would have been to call a 4bet shove at the time. Looking back at it I think that probably would have been fine with his 25ish BBs. I would expect him to c bet this flop almost every time so I thought I would call and revaluate the on the turn. When he over shoves the turn I don’t think he ever has a king but is it too hopeful to call here with 88? What sort of hands do we think he does this with? Any thoughts on pre flop, flop and turn would be welcome.

Poking_Fun
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December 16, 2013 - 12:43 pm
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With 88 in the BB I think preflop calling is ok but probably not optimal. I think I am at least 3b/calling and possibly even considering a shove given villain has opened to 3x. If we standard 3b here then I think it virtually commits us anyway.

When he opens to 3x there is 4700 in the pot versus an effective stack of 20k odd so just winning preflop looks quite attractive to me. If my hand was TT+ then I think I prefer a 3b as he could jam hands we dominate a lot easier but with 88 I think I actually prefer a jam but it is pretty close between 3b/calling and shoving.

FkCoolers
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December 16, 2013 - 12:54 pm
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Pretty gross since with two flush draws on board I think Kx and better pairs play it this way. 

I don't think we too do well vs. his range here. 

WackyJuan
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December 23, 2013 - 5:52 pm
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I think that pre-flop this is either a 3b/call, shove or a fold spot.  3betting commits you to the pot (putting in 1/3+ of his remaining stack if you reraise to 7bb+), so 3b/folding is out of the question.  But, if you're willing to 3b/call, you might as well shove as this gives you the most FE.  A call is not as good of an option:  If you're set mining this is at the top of the 5/10 rule range (1,600 to call with 17,701 behind for 9%), so it's marginal.  If you're calling for value, that makes it difficult as there are lots of overs that will flop, and you're playing OOP against a player that you don't have much of a read on.

As played, donking the flop for 4bb (instead of c/c) could've netted you the pot and you could've folded to a raise.  C/f would've been preferable as I don't think you're calling to float and take it away on the turn, and you're probably not calling for value.  It looks like a call for the hope that he's got nothing and will give up the t and r.

I would fold the turn to his overshove.  He made a standard cbet, leaving him with just over a pot-sized stack for his turn play (he should've cbet 2/3 pot for FE and to give him a better t shove stack).  He may not have been thoughtful enough to realize this, and upon seeing this mistake, instead of making a standard t cbet his only option was to shove, as anything else would've left him with too little on the river.  He could've been doing this for value or a bluff, but either way it's too much to call in the hopes that he doesn't have a K, 22, 55 or 99+, or even two overs and a fd.

Foucault

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December 23, 2013 - 8:19 pm
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I would jam preflop but as played I think it's a pretty easy call unless you have some sort of read that he's a nit. Exploitively, he seems more likely to do this with some sort of drawing hand (which could include something as weak as like ATo) than a really strong made hand. Although he might jam some vulnerable stuff that crushes you (99 – QQ), he's at least as likely to jam smaller pairs. It's not that much more than a PSB, so if it turns out he does have overs and a flush draw folding is a huge mistake.

DaKid
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December 24, 2013 - 7:49 am
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Pre-flop I think its a 3bet as most people have said. On the turn to me it just looks like a FD. I mean a king is very much in your range so why would someone ever jam the turn as a bluff. Any hand with showdown surely checks behind. A FD looks like a hand that can be semi-bluffed and still have outs if a king calls.

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