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88 early on in tournament, flop set, face turn raise
bennymacca
Adelaide Australia
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January 3, 2011 - 7:28 pm
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this was not me playing but another player on another forum i post on, and it generated quite a bit of discussion so i thought it would be interesting to post here. 

 

situation is early in the tournament, no reads

 

my opinion is that the hand is played fine up to this point, and i would flat and stack off on the river (except maybe if its an A or T) because there are lots of 2 pair hands in villains' range that will stack off on a brick river. 

 

Full Tilt Poker Daily Double – A No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t10/t20 Blinds – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

UTG+1: t2800 140 BBs
UTG+2: t2970 148.50 BBs
MP1: t3020 151 BBs
MP2: t3760 188 BBs
CO: t2970 148.50 BBs
BTN: t2280 114 BBs
Hero (SB): t2980 149 BBs
BB: t2950 147.50 BBs
UTG: t3270 163.50 BBs

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is SB with 8 of spades 8 of clubs
UTG requests TIME, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 5 folds, Hero calls t10, BB checks

Flop: (t60) K of hearts 8 of diamonds Q of clubs (3 players)
Hero bets t60, BB calls t60, UTG+1 calls t60

Turn: (t240) J of spades (3 players)
Hero bets t160, BB folds, UTG+1 raises to t720

bennymacca
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January 4, 2011 - 11:40 pm
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bumpage

FkCoolers
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January 5, 2011 - 12:30 pm
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Pretty sure I'd take the same line you mentioned…

bjizzle44
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January 5, 2011 - 2:36 pm
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w/88, im raising pre vs utg+1 limper when it gets to me 100% of the time. my hand is very likely the best and im not flopping sets enough to make limping vs one villian profitable.  by not raising, there are a ton of flops that is going to make me have to dump my holding. by raising,  its a chance to get the hand heads up as a riaise will make bb fold a ton of holdings. by raising we can represent a ton of holdings as well. again, i think raising is the best option pre.

on to play,

to me, the way the hand is played i dont think villan( with the mindset that villian is thinking player) is ever stacking off on river with two pr type hands with the line mentioned. i think if we flat turn ship river, he is only calling with str8s here. i think it could be spewy the times he has the str8 and i think we're losing value the times he does has two pr. if we're sure we're ahead, my line is to flat raise and check/call river.

 

bjizz

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January 6, 2011 - 5:37 am
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Think my first instinct was to call turn and then check call river. Another instinct I have is that this player is not a thinking player. I do feel alot of his range will be two pair hands, I feel his 3bet is too big to be str8 here on turn and on a blank river he will spew into our check which we can snap off.

 

I feel that the villian really likes his hand here and if we lead river he can easily shove on us and put us in an awkward spot. Much better option to check call a medium sized bet

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RonFezBuddy
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January 6, 2011 - 10:22 am
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I am not raising 88 pre OOP early.  We're purely setmining here IMO.

 

I'd 3 bet turn so that he doesn't fold his missed draws on river or his 2 pairs if a 4th straight card comes out.  I also don't want to get scared if a 4th straight card lands as well.

bennymacca
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January 7, 2011 - 12:29 am
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just to be sure, we are never ever folding this turn right?

 

sounds ridiculous but some not so experienced players on another forum were advocating this. 

 

i am also not raising this preflop, OOP. setmining is much better

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RonFezBuddy
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January 7, 2011 - 1:39 am
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I can't imagine ever folding here.  Lots of 2 pair hands in this guy's range.

tigerspeck
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January 7, 2011 - 9:25 am
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Something I have heard bigdog advocat this early in a tourney when you do hit your set what's the point of not raising pre. You can let go of the hand on the flop when you don't hit but raising pre has already built a pot- cbetting a dryer flop might take down a smaller pot. You want to accumulate this early not take down smallish pots. Irresepective of the outcome of this particular hand. No?

 

Are we not raising pre simply because we want the blinds to come along? In my opinion that is a valid reason but just beause we are OOP is not sufficient of a reason considerng the blind levels.

 

Please feel free to let me know I am completely wrong on this.

 

THOUGHTS?

bennymacca
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January 7, 2011 - 11:11 am
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so what are you suggesting tiger, raise pre and then still check-fold if we dont hit our set?

 

i just hate these spots because if i raise i feel like i have to put in a cbet, and although we are deep and we aren't risking too much of our stack, it still becomes really tough to play OOP

tigerspeck
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January 7, 2011 - 11:46 am
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That is what I am suggesting – we're are in the first level of the tourney are we not? This deep I am okay not cbetting a flop and giving up 2 way 185 chip pot.

 

I understand this play might be considered exploitable – but at the stakes mentioned above does it really matter? In low to mid-stakes as suggested by Sheldon Adelstein and Vanessa Selbt on one of her podcasts; we should be playing an exploitable strategy such as this because over a large sample size we won't encounter someone that will be able to take advantage of this nearly enough.

 

bennymacca SAID:

i just hate these spots because if i raise i feel like i have to put in a cbet, and although we are deep and we aren't risking too much of our stack, it still becomes really tough to play OOP

 

I do feel like these spots are tougher mid to late stages – but at these blind levels I think we are deep enough to let it go.

 

What might be useful is to do the math with villains range being two broadways or two pair hands vs 88 with the flop coming:

K of hearts x of diamonds Q of clubs where   x {8,10,J,Q,KA}

 

What pot odds do we need to call a flop bet vs. 1 opponent? I would do it but I am at work can anyone help me out?

bennymacca
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January 8, 2011 - 8:26 am
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tigerspeck said:

 

I understand this play might be considered exploitable – but at the stakes mentioned above does it really matter? In low to mid-stakes as suggested by Sheldon Adelstein and Vanessa Selbt on one of her podcasts; we should be playing an exploitable strategy such as this because over a large sample size we won't encounter someone that will be able to take advantage of this nearly enough.

 



its an interesting thought. 

 

why do we need to ever balance or take different lines sometimes when we dont encounter people that often, and probably most of the regs that we do encounter at these stakes aren't good enough to be exploiting you anyway. 

 

there are probably lots of spots where i am highly exploitable without even knowing it

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