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88 and 99 when to call a shove??
III PRO III
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June 7, 2011 - 11:48 am
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I never know if calling 15-20bb with 88 or 99 is a profitable move anyone can help??

Or about 10-15bb??

This is the bubble for the final table of a Sat. where only 3 win a entry for sunday million.

Poker Stars $2.02+$0.20 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t3000/t6000 Blinds + t600 – 5 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

melin1975 (BB): BB = 8.1, t48316, M = 4.03
kinheim (UTG): BB = 28.9, t173510, M = 14.46
SShalom80 Kz (CO): BB = 3.3, t19908, M = 1.66
Hero (BTN): BB = 15.9, t95438, M = 7.95
ifold1971 (SB): BB = 14.6, t87448, M = 7.29

Pre Flop: (t12000) Hero is BTN with 9 of spades 9 of diamonds
kinheim raises to t172910 all in, 1 fold, Hero calls t94838 all in, 2 folds

Flop: (t201676) 8 of clubs A of diamonds 7 of clubs (2 players – 2 are all in)

Turn: (t201676) K of clubs (2 players – 2 are all in)

River: (t201676) J of diamonds (2 players – 2 are all in)

hawkeyeK9
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June 7, 2011 - 12:12 pm
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For me this is a positional thing. Villian is open shoving 29bb's UTG. Just from experience, this is usually a play from a less experienced player with 99+. So there for I am folding here. Open shoving that many big blinds is ridiculous but it is always some player that is scared to play a medium to high pair post flop.

III PRO III
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June 7, 2011 - 12:18 pm
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I think he is shoving 29bb cuz all other 4 players are super short.

I dont think i can fold 99 here ever lolol but maybe i have to…

hawkeyeK9
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June 7, 2011 - 12:28 pm
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Great point. I did not pay attention to that and I should have. I still think he is doing this UTG with no regard to your 16bb stack on the BTN so I feel like his range here could be AJs, AQ+, or 99+. Still makes it a fold for you. I could be wrong on his range there but unless you have a read on him as just mega aggro then I think I am pretty close.

III PRO III
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June 7, 2011 - 12:45 pm
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He had KQs….88 and 99 seems to get me in trouble in these situations….if I had 10bb-12bb would be a easy call right with 88 and 99???

terbet11
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June 7, 2011 - 1:11 pm
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Hey Pro, Great Post…because I think that we all find ourselves in this spot during a mtt.  In regards to your question, I think that the big stack should know in this circumstance he can jam pretty wide knowing he has the fe and he can run over the table while everyone is trying to hold on to get the price.  In this particular spot 99s are the bottom of my range here, (8s is an insta fold), 9s still may be a tight fold due to the fact you are over 10bb with shortys at your table prior to getting to the final table.  I don't hate your call here because you are going to have to win some flips/races to go deep, but I typically like to be the raiser not the caller.  If your 9s hold here, great double up and you may not of posted.  At the end of the day you got it in good and that it is all you can ask for.  When playing in a satty though, ICM and stack sizes are critical and you want to pick your spots wisely. Best of luck at the tables.

hapetimes
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June 7, 2011 - 8:24 pm
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pretty close call imo

he's not super light b/c he's nearly always showing down with the micro stack or 1 of us

i'd basically ask myself would he do this with 88 or 77.. if the answer is more than a brief yes then i'd call

 

I always harp on about one other factor here, and that is what does our future look like?

by this i mean how much potential do we have to chip up and put pressure on others (particularly the 2 opponents to our left) in future spots?

this is extremely relevant in ICM terms closer to the bubble obv where you can fold many more hands to this kind of shove if you know you can exploit the players to your left in the same way

 

another thing to consider is you will almost certainly be at the FT within 2 hands time which will be before the blinds hit you again (unless of course some idiot can fold down to 1BB). so a case sould be made for tightening our range in order to make the FT and wait and see what our position is relative to other stack sizes hoping for the big ones all to our right and shorties to our left

 

fwiw my range in this spot would probably be exactly 99+AQ+

hawkeyeK9
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June 7, 2011 - 9:15 pm
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If he has done this for 3 or more straight hands when not in the blinds then I am calling but you did not indicate him doing that. We are 2nd in chips at this point even though it is only 16bb's. We gotta remember that we can shove optimally vs. these short stacks on our left and easily chip up and win the seat. This is why I fold the 99 here vs his range in this spot.

hawkeyeK9
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June 7, 2011 - 9:17 pm
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III PRO III said:

He had KQs….88 and 99 seems to get me in trouble in these situations….if I had 10bb-12bb would be a easy call right with 88 and 99???

Yes. The reason your situation is different is that you are 2nd in chips with 16bb stack and can definitely shove optimally vs short stacks. ICM is a big factor in your scenario.

hapetimes
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June 7, 2011 - 9:20 pm
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can i just clarify

are there 5 players left in the tourney?

or are there 10 players?

hawkeyeK9
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June 7, 2011 - 10:07 pm
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hapetimes said:

can i just clarify

are there 5 players left in the tourney?

or are there 10 players?

Wow. I apologize for my lack of attention to detail here. You are right hapetimes, I guess there is 10 people and I was thinking final 5. With that said, I dont stray too much from what I said above and you guys even said 99 is at the bottom of your range here. Like I said, if he has done this 3-5 times straight then I am calling no problem. I still think we can chip up just by shoving optimally, so I guess it is up to the player if they wanna take this marginal spot. Good comments guys.

DroppinDimes
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June 7, 2011 - 10:18 pm
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hapetimes said:

pretty close call imo

he's not super light b/c he's nearly always showing down with the micro stack or 1 of us

i'd basically ask myself would he do this with 88 or 77.. if the answer is more than a brief yes then i'd call

 

I always harp on about one other factor here, and that is what does our future look like?

by this i mean how much potential do we have to chip up and put pressure on others (particularly the 2 opponents to our left) in future spots?

this is extremely relevant in ICM terms closer to the bubble obv where you can fold many more hands to this kind of shove if you know you can exploit the players to your left in the same way

 

another thing to consider is you will almost certainly be at the FT within 2 hands time which will be before the blinds hit you again (unless of course some idiot can fold down to 1BB). so a case sould be made for tightening our range in order to make the FT and wait and see what our position is relative to other stack sizes hoping for the big ones all to our right and shorties to our left

 

fwiw my range in this spot would probably be exactly 99+AQ+

I 100% agree with everything hape said here ,my range is 99+ AQ+ too smile

mmfitter
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June 8, 2011 - 12:31 am
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Def good argument for folding, but I think calling is ok too.

If only three players win a seat, there's still a ton of play left. It might be a bit too early to fold for ICM reasons with a 15bb stack.

 Plus there's a decent percentage of times u have him crushed here – he prob does the same thing w 88, 77, 66, 55.

I think there's too many pple left to be folding 99 w 15bbs when you're almost never gonna be behind.

III PRO III
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June 8, 2011 - 5:37 am
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I only had one thing in my mind.

10 ppl left, first 3 guys get entry to the sunday million, if i win this 200k pot with 99 im takinf this sat down easily thats why i called.

But I still think 88 and 99 are a weak point in my game.

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