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Have been quite active on the table. Table reasonably passive. I had recently been crippled when a donkey shoved 48 BB from middle position preflop, I woke up with aces in the SB and obviously called. His 66 cracked my AA. I preceded to double up shoving 77 into a late positon open and they held up to his KJ. Then this hand came along.
Poker Stars $30+$3 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t150/t300 Blinds + t25 – 8 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
shamia333 (UTG): BB = 41.7, t12516
FrankTaylor3 (UTG+1): BB = 101.3, t30378
Paulo14111 (MP1): BB = 74.7, t22415
Hero (MP2): BB = 25.3, t7589
duskebusk (CO): BB = 19.8, t5925
Matt2.5RST (BTN): BB = 110.6, t33193
akasan1211 (SB): BB = 109.3, t32802
lolodude (BB): BB = 63.0, t18900
Pre Flop: (t650) Hero is MP2 with 8
7
3 folds, Hero raises to t665, 3 folds, lolodude calls t365
Flop: (t1680) 8
9 9
(2 players)
lolodude checks, Hero bets t900, lolodude calls t900
Turn: (t3480) 3 (2 players)
lolodude bets t2400
As I said previously, table very passive, was not played back at often and villian also playing quite tight. I've been quite aggresive.
Will post result later.
October 6, 2010
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what do people think about checking back flop for pot control?
this is a pretty sucky spot, there are some straight draws out there, and if an A or K hit the turn then its bad news, but i just think taking a free card and evaluating is a better option, as we cant stand even a single bet at this stage really.
Hi Benny
Did consider this option, but I thought I could just and I mean just afford a c bet here and hopefully take it down.
If he checked raised me, I am pretty sure I was going to give it up, leaving myself a reasonable shove stack.
As I said, I was quite aggresive on this table, I hardly got played back at, so if he checked raised me, I think I would've
given it up, thinking he was trapping me with 10 10 or JJ (maybe even a 9) or something along those lines.
But once he called and then bet out the turn, it changed my opinion on the line of action. I am pretty sure he was putting me
on a strong Ace thinking he can make me lay it down.
The turn was pretty much a brick. I put this guy on some sort of draw. J 10 or 7 6 or even a gutshot. His bet to me screamed a missed
draw and he just wanted to take down the pot now, knowing there is no way I can call half my stack. I tanked for a minute or so and then
shoved.
He tanked for a while and eventually called.
July 3, 2010
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I probably just fold pre-flop to be honest. 1 re-shove and 3 deep stacks behind and we don't have a good stack to play speculative hands.
And then there are spots like this where you start becoming invested with a medium holding and feel like you can't fold.
October 6, 2010
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FkCoolers said:
I probably just fold pre-flop to be honest. 1 re-shove and 3 deep stacks behind and we don't have a good stack to play speculative hands.
And then there are spots like this where you start becoming invested with a medium holding and feel like you can't fold.
October 6, 2010
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seriously though, these are perfect hands to balance your opening range with imo. in fact, i would possibly open this from every position, even utg when most of the table is this deep. i think 25bb is enough to be doing this, any less and it gets a bit dicey.
Agree benny
As I stated, I was opening alot and hardly ever got 3 bet. At a more aggressive table and with my stack, I probably would not have opened this hand from this position.
Anyways here is the result. I was correct that he was on a draw, but not the draw I put him on. Don't know why he tanked and then called, he was reasonably priced in. Although when he tanked I was confident I had the best hand and wanted a call. Alas he rivered me. I was happy though, got my chips in good. That's all you can do.
Poker Stars $30+$3 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t150/t300 Blinds + t25 – 8 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
shamia333 (UTG): BB = 41.7, t12516
FrankTaylor3 (UTG+1): BB = 101.3, t30378
Paulo14111 (MP1): BB = 74.7, t22415
Hero (MP2): BB = 25.3, t7589
duskebusk (CO): BB = 19.8, t5925
Matt2.5RST (BTN): BB = 110.6, t33193
akasan1211 (SB): BB = 109.3, t32802
lolodude (BB): BB = 63.0, t18900
Pre Flop: (t650) Hero is MP2 with 8 7
3 folds, Hero raises to t665, 3 folds, lolodude calls t365
Flop: (t1680) 8 9 9 (2 players)
lolodude checks, Hero bets t900, lolodude calls t900
Turn: (t3480) 3 (2 players)
lolodude bets t2400, Hero raises to t5999 all in, lolodude calls t3599
River: (t15478) 4 (2 players – 1 is all in)
*** SHOW DOWN *** lolodude: shows [JK
7
July 3, 2010
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Range balancing is highly overrated if you won't be seeing the same players over and over again for a long period of time.
If we open this hand and miss the flop (and that's what will happen most of the time) we're going to c-bet and get floated a lot. After the float we have 20 bb's. If we shut down we can't really open pots much anymore and if we double barrel and get called we either need to bluff shove or shut it down and play about a 15-16 bb stack.
Honestly not seeing the Pros to opening here vs. a very active BB. We should really only be opening weaker hands if the table is tight because we're opening as a steal. Otherwise we're asking to get into marginal spots playing for our stack against people who can afford to look us up light.
Some great points FK
Your logic is sound and hard to argue with, but one point you've missed is that this table was tight and passive including the BB, you mention he is active but he wasn't. He obviously loosened up on this hand probably deciding to play back at me for being so aggresive.
Weaker hands? Weaker than 87s? I think this is quite a weak hand, don't you?
I would not be opening it in any position with 25bb's. I think it is ok to open this hand in the CO or BTN. As played though, I understand that you are right but his donk lead can never fold for only 3600 more. So you have no FE and your holding an 8 with a horrible kicker. Let it go to the donk lead man. Sick read but you are getting called with a 9, better 8's, and draws and overcards….which you are not fairing good against for your tourney life.
Thx for the comments hawkeye
I must be missing something. And if I'm wrong, I am first to admit it. I know I am by far not a good poker player compared to some of the other members, I have only recently joined and have a lot to learn.
Your comments, like Fk are correct and cannot be argued. These basic fundamentals of stack size and position and what and when I should open with such a hand is common sense and some basic fundamental rules.
But what I have learned from the pros and videos, that even such rules can be violated depending on the table dynamics. As I stated I would not have opened this hand with my stack and in that position at a more aggresive table. But these guys were pretty much letting me open, if someone called I c bet (most times depending on board texture) whether I hit or not and they folded. Occasionally I was played back at and it was usually a pretty simple fold.
Anyways thx again for the comments, really appreciate it.
July 3, 2010
Offline
Ew – I misread one line in your post and it changes a lot of what I think about the hand.
For some reason I read it as “villain as been active” and not you have been active.
Also, I think there are two types of passive play – tight passive and loose passive.
At a loose passive table with all big stacks it becomes a hard hand to play on a 25 bb stack. If the table has been nitty I think we can open it under some circumstances.
I think there is a place for both folding and opening this hand here
Like you said donskey, the pros violate all kinds of rules depending on table dynamic etc
What i have found is that there is a close relationship between “violating” rules and the skill level of the player (us)
By that i mean, most of the time when i get too creative or aggressive in spots i guess similar to this one, i feel like i would have just been better off folding pre (because my skill level is obv not that of a pro)
In any case – if you feel like your c bet works a great % of the time i would c bet for sure
I would probably fold the turn though b/c we dont have any remaining FE and most of the range we have for him includes 9's, maybe some better 8's and hands just like what he has – overs with a F draw, straight draw or a combo draw which we are probably behind
I'm sure if the table is weak passive we could choose easier spots when we are bigger favourites to get our chips in
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