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August 16, 2013
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Hello, TPE !
I played a tournament last night on PP, 50$ buy-in. We are ITM with 32 players left. There are no big differences between prize of 32th place and 10th place. (from 100 to about 150$).
1st place 1600$
2nd 1400$
3rd 850$
4rd 700$
I am moved to a new table 10 hands ago and I have a player two seats on my right with a little more chips than I. I think he is a good reg, high stakes player. The only hand I played at this table was when I 3bet him from the SB from 3000 to 6999 and he folded. I haven’t played with him before.
Now I have JJ in CO
***** Hand History for Game 14084268715 *****
NL Texas Hold’em $50 USD Buy-in Trny:111709126 Level:16 Blinds-Antes(750/1,500 -150) – Thursday, September 04, 03:24:20 EEST 2014
Table MAJOR. $10,000 Gtd (111709126) Table #16 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 8/9
Seat 8: Bar_lee (HERO) ( 41,627 )
Seat 2: islachris1 ( 35,710 )
Seat 6: jimboeheim ( 44,397 )
Seat 5: lumberlen ( 17,553 )
Seat 1: mknpp ( 16,028 )
Seat 9: o_v-44-m_o ( 36,376 )
Seat 3: tegtmeier99 ( 35,506 )
Seat 4: yzw42 ( 62,359 )
Trny:111709126 Level:16
Blinds-Antes(750/1,500 -150)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Bar_lee [ Jd Jc ]
tegtmeier99 folds
yzw42 folds
lumberlen folds
jimboeheim raises [3,000]
Bar_lee raises [6,775]
o_v-44-m_o folds
mknpp folds
islachris1 folds
jimboeheim raises [10,200] (That means to 13200)
My questions are :
1) Is he ever bluffing with this sizing?
2) Is he value 4beting or trying to induce a shove with a weaker hand than JJ (99, TT, AK, AQ) ?
I will wait for your answers and than I will tell you what my toughts and actions were.
Thank’s a lot.
Run well!
November 4, 2013
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Nice post .. I am curious to know what the pros think.
Since nobody spoke yet I will guess a few things.
He has put in almost a quarter of his stack. If you think he is a good reg and only has 10 hands on you, he is probably not inducing with AQ or 99. I think a complete bluff that he intends to fold to your shove is slightly more likely than that. It would be nice to be able to keep those hands in if they exist. More likely than all of that is that he has an excellent hand. TT and AK are in the mix but just as likely are QQ-AA. He may also be playing AJ-AQ and 77-99 this way and be willing to call an all in even though he doesn't want to (which is similar to inducing I guess).
I don't know the answer as to what to do.
You can fold and only lose 6,775 – an argument for folding. But I think that makes your 3bets look too weak – an argument for not folding. The flop can be very favorable for JJ and make you a lot of money, or it can be unfavorable for JJ and save you lots of money if you are willing to fold on the flop – an argument for calling.
But I think shoving is best because he really may have a hand worse than JJ and be willing to grit his teeth and call. He may also have AQ or AK and decide to fold, which would be awesome for you. Shoving also makes your 3bets look pretty strong and that should help your image going into the final tables, should you survive this hand.
You've already 3bet him once in 10 hands and he folded. I think he could be wide enough, not wanting you to think you can run him over.
I shove.
This is a great post and a tough spot. I am also interested what the pros and others will say. I think based on the villian opening in middle position with 30bb's, his original open range can be relatively wide. I know you have only played 10 hands with him but did he open a few hands before this? If so, how did those run?
Is mkpnn in the small blind with 11bb's? If so, when you 3bet here, villian knows you are relatively strong because you would have to call the short stack in the sb. Once everyone else folds, he decides to 4bet and commit 1/3 of his stack. Although this could be polarized and a bluff, he does not have enough hands on you to know if you are likely to fold to a 4bet or not. He is making this decision without a good read on yourself, I would think it is the nutted side of his polarized range and we need to make a disciplined fold here.
August 16, 2013
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Thank you for your attention on my post and for the very very good replyes. I can't wait for more! But I will hope that some pros look at this hand and mabye give me some thouhgts on it before I tell what my actions were. Thank's a lot. I find your replies very helpfull
August 16, 2013
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I now reviewed the hands, and there were 17 hands before this one with him at the table.
He made one 3bet squeeze shove of 20 BB from BTN vs HJ&CO and a 3bet from SB vs CO from 2,1 to 5,8 BBs and the opener folded. And the open/fold when I 3beted him
August 16, 2013
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hawkeyeK9 said:
This is a great post and a tough spot. I am also interested what the pros and others will say. I think based on the villian opening in middle position with 30bb's, his original open range can be relatively wide. I know you have only played 10 hands with him but did he open a few hands before this? If so, how did those run?
Is mkpnn in the small blind with 11bb's? If so, when you 3bet here, villian knows you are relatively strong because you would have to call the short stack in the sb. Once everyone else folds, he decides to 4bet and commit 1/3 of his stack. Although this could be polarized and a bluff, he does not have enough hands on you to know if you are likely to fold to a 4bet or not. He is making this decision without a good read on yourself, I would think it is the nutted side of his polarized range and we need to make a disciplined fold here.
I think about the 11 bbs stack and what you said that I look strong for the opener, but I also look strong for the shortstack, wich is very likely to fold. Mabye if I was stronger I wanted to flat and induce a shove from the shortstack. You can see it from both perspectives.
December 24, 2013
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I think it depends on villain's perception of you.
Because he's opening late position, his opening range is going to be very wide. If he thinks youre 3bet for value range is wide enough to have a 3b for value/fold, then he can 4bet bluff as well as 4bet some strong hands small instead of not all in. He can do this with some combos of AA/KK/AK, say 2 AA/KK and 4 AK for 8 combos, and match it with some suited A2-A5 combos. If he's a good high stakes tournament player, he probably has a range worked out. Since he'd be getting too good of a price when you shove to fold really, he could use something like those low suited Aces as his bluffs for blockers. Those blockers make it less likely you have AQ/AK and AA if you were to 5b TT+ AQs+(7 combos of 50), whereas if he uses like 44-55 as his bluffs to have better equity against his rips, he'd be up against more combos of hands, making it slighlty more often he has to call.
Since youre both readless, I think this is a good spot for him to actually flat you with KK/AA since you'd be cbetting and you only start the hand with 28bb anyway. All that said, I'm confused by his sizing and don't know how I'd react in game. It looks like he wants action, it gives you the ability to do more than just call all in or fold, etc. It depends if he's balanced. It depends. I think I just treat his sizing as an all in to keep from leveling myself, since I don't know what he's doing it with yet. I certainly 3b JJ for value and get it in happily against a wide 4bet rip range. He can be ripping AT+ KQ, lots of pairs as his opening range is likely very wide and those hands are near the very top of his range.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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You need to decide how you're going to respond to a 4-bet before you 3-bet. If you think it will put you in a gross spot, then it may be better not to 3-bet. Given stacks and positions here, I think that 3-betting planning to get it in is good.
The only question, then, is whether you want to now make an exploitable fold based on Villain's sizing. That's a hard thing for me or anyone else to advise you on, because it comes down to whether this particular Villain has sizing tells. If you aren't sure, then don't make the exploitable fold and just stick it in.
Regarding the argument that it's best to keep bluffs in, I'm not sure I agree. Many of those hands will have an overcard to your JJ, so you gain a lot by making them fold, and I think there are some flops where you'll end up getting bluffed off of the best hand occasionally. With the pot being so large already, I wouldn't call just to keep bluffs in.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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“You can fold and only lose 6,775 – an argument for folding. But I think that makes your 3bets look too weak – an argument for not folding. “
Honestly I don’t think either of these are good criteria to use. The amount of money you already put in the pot is irrelevant except insofar as it affects how much more you have to put in to play out the hand.
It’s not an intrinsically bad thing for your 3bets to look weak. You just have to be aware of that image and adjust accordingly.
August 16, 2013
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Thank you, Foucault! Thank you, TPE ! You answers helped me a lot !
Now I owe you the continuation of the story : I shoved, he had AA and arrivederci! The main reason I made this post is that I somehow felt he had AA, but I just couldn't let him exploit me. And that's what he probably thinked with that tiny inducing 4bet. Mabye after 6 months this 4bet will be a bluff most of the time. Weird. That's why poker is so fun.
Good luck!
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