The hand below is typical of a spot I just don’t understand yet so I’d really appreciate some advice. As you can see I had almost exactly 20 bb’s. The villain in the BB had been aggro but not daft when it came to defending his BB. Recently I’d been 3bet several times from the player in the sb and I’d folded, whether he’d noticed this I obviosly don’t know. I’ve been opening wide in position.
Should I just be shoving rather than open raising? Should I be either folding or 4 bet shoving once he raises? Is my line even a viable one? My thinking was that I was just deep enough to open raise and and when he 3bet I thought he could be light, so I could call and then look at the texture of the flop and either fold or shove to his inevitable cbet. I'm guessing I'm just not deep enough to make this move.
Like I say, I’m really struggling with spots like this so any advice is welcome but as this is my first stratedgy thread, be gentle!
Poker Stars $5.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold’em Tournament – t3500/t7000 Blinds + t875 – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter
BB: BB = 28.3, t197881
UTG: BB = 44.9, t314557
UTG+1: BB = 30.2, t211572
UTG+2: BB = 18.2, t127333
MP1: BB = 9.9, t68952
MP2: BB = 29.3, t204962
Hero (CO): BB = 20.4, t142865
BTN: BB = 19.8, t138718
SB: BB = 20.0, t140341
Pre Flop: (t18375) Hero is CO with Q K
5 folds, Hero raises to t14000, 2 folds, BB raises to t33665, Hero calls t19665
Flop: (t78705) 5 4 2 (2 players)
BB bets t32665, Hero raises to t108325 all in
Edit: Just looking at it written down, it's horrible isn't it!
I've also removed the action following my shove.
One thing is certain, I'm never folding KQo here when it folds to me with 20 bb's. I more than likely just rip this in as the players behind you are going to have to wake up with a monster to call. With their stack sizes they are probably even folding like A10, AJ, 77, 88, and maybe even 99. Raise folding isn't horrible either, although I do hate doing that with 20 bb's. Raise/flatting is horrible imo. Give em the ol' stuffy baker and increase your stack by roughly 10% here.
Cheers mate, I’ve come to the same conclusion regarding the call and I agree the stuff is the most optimum play. I can also see that raise/fold is superior to the mess I made. Is there any merit in a raise/stuff?
It’s probably best just to ignore my post flop play because I don’t intend on putting myself in that spot again.
July 3, 2010
FkCoolers said:
There isn't really much merit to raise/call or raise/jam unless you really knew that people behind you were capable light OOP 3 bettors. If they're just avg. players then jamming is better than all other options.
As it happens he called my shove, had A4 and not that he needed it, hit the 3 on the turn.
So, in this case the raise/jam would probably have taken down the pot but it's safe to say the jam is the right move in this spot.
Cheers for taking the time to reply. We live and learn.
Edit: Another question actually, how many bb's do you think we need to make the raise/fold, raise/call and raise/jam moves worthy of consideration? Or are any of them poor moves no matter of stack sizes?
I realise that is two questions and neither have a difinitive answer. Just wouldn't mind a discussion round this type of scenario.
I think flatting is terrible with your stack size. 4b jam or Fold imo. I personally would jam here as KQ is the nuts vs an aggro player in the blinds who has a tendancy to 3b. If im him in all honesty I prolly jam A x vs your effective stack size.
I think to raise call in this spot you need 35-40bb +
Raise/ jam probs about <30 bb
The only scenario i imagine raise folding is if he stuffs it down your throat then its close and i dont really love calling off with K high.
Thanks for the response, I was planning having a week off the poker and purely studying but couldn't resist sneaking in a tournament last night. Inevitably a very similar scenario arose just as I approached the bubble, I jammed and got snap called by AK!
Better to lose like that than the way I did in the original post though.
When the action folds to us the 1st thing we should think is “what is the best way for us to get our stack in?”
Jamming is the simplest and probably most correct vs unknown or average opponents. It's unexploitable.
Something must be said for raise calling (inducing) vs some villains though
With a lot of history/reads etc it can be a lot more profitable to do this if;
1) he knows you are capable of r/f 20bbs from LP
2) he is capable of 3betting air
3) he can 3bet fold
OR he can 3bet/call with worse than KQ
These are a lot of thing to think about but essentially when we raise instead of jam, we offer villain the opportunity to put more chips in to the pot. If he is capable of doing this with worse hands than ours (which obv depends on our history) then it is higher cEV albeit higher variance for us in the long run.
There is a small problem with only raising pre – at lower stakes we get called way too often and are forced to play a pot post flop with <20bbs which really sucks when we miss.
Food for thought.. but i'd probs just jam it pre and move on whatever happens.
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