View Plans & Pricing

If you are signed in and are seeing this message, please be sure you have selected a user name in My Profile. The forum requires it.
A A A
Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
sp_TopicIcon
$5 cubed - Pokerstar, 27 left of original field of roughly 600
Verlibs
Guest
Guests
1
April 10, 2012 - 3:15 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

The hand below is typical of a spot I just don’t understand yet so I’d really appreciate some advice. As you can see I had almost exactly 20 bb’s. The villain in the BB had been aggro but not daft when it came to defending his BB. Recently I’d been 3bet several times from the player in the sb and I’d folded, whether he’d noticed this I obviosly don’t know. I’ve been opening wide in position.

 

Should I just be shoving rather than open raising? Should I be either folding or 4 bet shoving once he raises? Is my line even a viable one? My thinking was that I was just deep enough to open raise and and when he 3bet I thought he could be light, so I could call and then look at the texture of the flop and either fold or shove to his inevitable cbet. I'm guessing I'm just not deep enough to make this move.

 

Like I say, I’m really struggling with spots like this so any advice is welcome but as this is my first stratedgy thread, be gentle! embarassed

 

Poker Stars $5.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold’em Tournament – t3500/t7000 Blinds + t875 – 9 players
TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

BB: BB = 28.3, t197881
UTG: BB = 44.9, t314557
UTG+1: BB = 30.2, t211572
UTG+2: BB = 18.2, t127333
MP1: BB = 9.9, t68952
MP2: BB = 29.3, t204962
Hero (CO): BB = 20.4, t142865
BTN: BB = 19.8, t138718
SB: BB = 20.0, t140341

Pre Flop: (t18375) Hero is CO with Q of diamonds K of spades
5 folds, Hero raises to t14000, 2 folds, BB raises to t33665, Hero calls t19665

Flop: (t78705) 5 of clubs 4 of hearts 2 of diamonds (2 players)
BB bets t32665, Hero raises to t108325 all in

 

Edit: Just looking at it written down, it's horrible isn't it!

 

I've also removed the action following my shove.

JLUDEOBV
Guest
Guests
2
April 10, 2012 - 10:49 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

One thing is certain, I'm never folding KQo here when it folds to me with 20 bb's. I more than likely just rip this in as the players behind you are going to have to wake up with a monster to call. With their stack sizes they are probably even folding like A10, AJ, 77, 88, and maybe even 99. Raise folding isn't horrible either, although I do hate doing that with 20 bb's. Raise/flatting is horrible imo. Give em the ol' stuffy baker and increase your stack by roughly 10% here.

Verlibs
Guest
Guests
3
April 11, 2012 - 3:17 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Cheers mate, I’ve come to the same conclusion regarding the call and I agree the stuff is the most optimum play. I can also see that raise/fold is superior to the mess I made. Is there any merit in a raise/stuff?

It’s probably best just to ignore my post flop play because I don’t intend on putting myself in that spot again.

FkCoolers
Cambridge, Ma (Central Square)
Member Moderator
Forum Posts: 1610
Member Since:
July 3, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
April 11, 2012 - 7:21 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

There isn't really much merit to raise/call or raise/jam unless you really knew that people behind you were capable light OOP 3 bettors. If they're just avg. players then jamming is better than all other options. 

Verlibs
Guest
Guests
5
April 11, 2012 - 1:54 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

FkCoolers said:

There isn't really much merit to raise/call or raise/jam unless you really knew that people behind you were capable light OOP 3 bettors. If they're just avg. players then jamming is better than all other options. 

As it happens he called my shove, had A4 and not that he needed it, hit the 3 on the turn.

 

So, in this case the raise/jam would probably have taken down the pot but it's safe to say the jam is the right move in this spot.

 

Cheers for taking the time to reply. We live and learn. smile

 

Edit: Another question actually, how many bb's do you think we need to make the raise/fold, raise/call and raise/jam moves worthy of consideration? Or are any of them poor moves no matter of stack sizes?

 

I realise that is two questions and neither have a difinitive answer. Just wouldn't mind a discussion round this type of scenario. embarassed

Van H3Lzing
Guest
Guests
6
April 12, 2012 - 6:58 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I think flatting is terrible with your stack size. 4b jam or Fold imo. I personally would jam here as KQ is the nuts vs an aggro player in the blinds who has a tendancy to 3b. If im him in all honesty I prolly jam A x vs your effective stack size.

 

I think to raise call in this spot you need 35-40bb +

 

Raise/ jam probs about <30 bb

 

The only scenario i imagine raise folding is if he stuffs it down your throat then its close and i dont really love calling off with K high.

 

laugh
Verlibs
Guest
Guests
7
April 12, 2012 - 7:56 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Thanks for the response, I was planning having a week off the poker and purely studying but couldn't resist sneaking in a tournament last night. Inevitably a very similar scenario arose just as I approached the bubble, I jammed and got snap called by AK! laugh

 

Better to lose like that than the way I did in the original post though.

hapetimes
Guest
Guests
8
April 12, 2012 - 8:05 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

When the action folds to us the 1st thing we should think is “what is the best way for us to get our stack in?”

 

Jamming is the simplest and probably most correct vs unknown or average opponents. It's unexploitable.

 

Something must be said for raise calling (inducing) vs some villains though

With a lot of history/reads etc it can be a lot more profitable to do this if;

1) he knows you are capable of r/f 20bbs from LP

2) he is capable of 3betting air

3) he can 3bet fold

OR he can 3bet/call with worse than KQ

 

These are a lot of thing to think about but essentially when we raise instead of jam, we offer villain the opportunity to put more chips in to the pot. If he is capable of doing this with worse hands than ours (which obv depends on our history) then it is higher cEV albeit higher variance for us in the long run.

 

There is a small problem with only raising pre – at lower stakes we get called way too often and are forced to play a pot post flop with <20bbs which really sucks when we miss.

 

Food for thought.. but i'd probs just jam it pre and move on whatever happens.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 2780

Currently Online:
95 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

bennymacca: 2616

Foucault: 2067

folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133

praetor: 1033

theginger45: 924

P-aire 146: 832

Turbulence: 768

The Riceman: 731

duggs: 591

florianm1: 588

Newest Members:

Tillery999

sdmathis89

ne0x00

adrianvaida2525

Anteeater

Laggro

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 24

Topics: 12705

Posts: 75003

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1063

Members: 12008

Moderators: 2

Admins: 5

Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos

Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1