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Hi,
I’m a new member and I already watched several series and had some questions about the 3bet strategy. In the videos I watched, I often see Pros 3betting hands like AJo, 99, ATs, KQs in position (even in early position: UTG vs UTG +1 or 2) with no really history. What is our strategy if OR 4bets? Are we always going broke or are we sometimes 3bet/folding?
The argument I heard in videos is often “I’m probably ahead of his opening range so I can 3bet” but don’t we have to make our decision based on the reaction of OR vs 3bet? I mean if he calls a lot of 3bets OOP we can probably 3bet him for value but if he only plays 4bet or fold strategy isn’t it better to just call and play IP vs a range we crush?
To take an example, I remember a hand where BigDog 3bets 99 UTG+2 vs UTG with no really history (it's in early stages so they are both pretty deep). What is he doing if vilain 4bets? Folding seems bad because we are pretty turning a good hand into a bluff and I don’t think we are really happy to go broke with 99 vs a 4bet UTG when we 3bet UTG+2… I’m not saying bigdog played the hand badly but I just want to understand the strategy behind this because I saw this kind of situations several times and feel pretty uncomfortable with it.
Hope you understand what I mean and sorry for tl;dr
ty
July 17, 2012
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Hi There,
Darryl Jace just released a new series pertaining to 3bet and 4bet's. Check it out as it might answer alot of your questions.
Cheers,
Hi,
Ty, I already watched the first 2 episodes, this is a really good serie but it doesn't really answer to my question (maybe is the next episodes, I will see ^^).
To simplify, I just want to know when it's good to 3bet with hand like 99 or AJo in position. For example we are 30BB deep UTG+1 or 2 with AJ or AQ or 99… UTG open, we have no history or dynamic. What is the best play?. I hate these kind of spots, never know if it's better to call or 3bet and **** my life when he 4bets…
May 30, 2012
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i strongly agree with you and have brought it up several times, pretty much we are wasting equity by turning the middle of our range into a bluff when we could use the bottom instead.
July 7, 2012
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Several things here I think:-
1) Firstly the pros (especially Bdog) are extremely good post flop and dont have to have it to take do the pot or get away from it when required
2) 3 betting the middle of our range (sometimes not always) does several things
i) puts villian in a difficult spot with the middle of his range
ii) allows us to better define villains range and hence how to proceed
iii) will probably allow us to get away cheaper from hands where we are dominated e.g. AT v AQ
iv) we are going to take down bigger pots on the flop a lot of the time with our cbet as allows us to rep a more/stronger hands post flop e.g 3betting 88 pre in position and villain calls and the flop comes A95, we can comfortably cbet 40% of pot and expect to take it down +50% of the time same with a K high flop, if we meet significant resistance we can comfortably let it go.
vi) Sets up an image of aggression, and 3betting wide so that when we do have it we get desired action.
vii) Stops players behind flatting and speculating and allows us to isolate the pot in position (most of the time)
May 30, 2012
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1/ being good postflop should make us lean towards flatting, as we can more easily outplay a wider range by vbetting thin and bluffing good frequencies. and it keeps the SPR larger (extremely deep, 3betting wider becomes better as noone folds)
2i) so does 3betting in general, in theory if we are having a polarised and merged range, we open ourselves up 3b/f too much. we are basically bluffing with a hand that has better equity is hurting our calling range.
ii) betting for information shouldnt be a reason for betting
iii) while that is true it also prevents us from realising our equity when dominated on the flop.
iv) but v a strong calling range this just isnt going to work that well, and if we are going to profit like this, A2s is a better hand to do it with.
vi)this is true of 3betting in general
vii) generally speaking unless we are isolating a fish we dont really hate flatters behind, especially as the middle of our range plays better multiway than the top, since we usually flop enough equity to comfortably continue or comfortably give up
October 6, 2010
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i think the main reason why it is good is you can take down pots unopposed when you cbet. and i think people underestimate the equity of that. if we flat with a strong but unmade hand like KQ or AT we are never winning at showdown, and it is much harder for us to rep a credible hand if we flat preflop.
so i think there is definitely a case for flatting hands like 88-TT (even JJ sometimes) because they have showdown value most of the time, and we have to rely less on bluffing to win our fair share of pots. but with a hand like AQ 3betting might be better, because even if we are behind of villain's 3bet calling range, if we can fold out enough of it on certain board textures we pick up a lot of equity.
an example might be 3betting AQo.
lets assume villain 4bets QQ+, AK, and flats the 3bet with AJs, AQ, 99-JJ (lets also assume its an utg raise and he has no raise-folding range (which makes it better for our 3bet but is not important to my argument)
we are only 48% against that range, not to mention the times when we 3bet fold, so it might seem like its a good idea to flat.
but when you look at that 3bet calling range, we play much better against almost all of it when we 3bet. because on A/K/Q high boards, we pretty much always win assuming we fire more than 1 barrel on the K high boards, and even T and J high boards can be good for us because we fold out 99 and villains ace high hands, and can comfortably fold to resistance otherwise. even sometthing like a 7 high board might be good because we can cbet flop, and get any of those good cards for us on the turn that will fold to a double barrel.
PS i just did the math, and if we are looking for an A/K/Q on either the flop or the turn, that happens 66% of the time, which is pretty high. and (ignoring two pair and sets) we therefore win 66% of the time. they also fold on some other boards sometimes too, which might be balanced out by the times when they do outflop us and we also flop well.
am i making sense here? let me know.
First, I would just like to thank you for your answers because if I suscribed to TPE it was to have this kind of discussions (and obv watch videos too) and it’s really great to talk strategy with you guys 
About answers, I agree with certain points and disagree with others. As I said earlier, for me it really depends on the reaction of OR vs 3bets:
– If OR calls a lot of 3bets OOP (and plays fit or fold on the flop) so it’s probably good to 3 bet him with a merge range imo because if he calls with hands like JT, T9, 66, KJ, KT, A7… we can 3bet, 99, AT, AJ, KQ for value and as said Bennymacca we are going to win a lot of pots just by Cbetting on high board. The more he calls 3bets the more we can merge our range and add hands like JQ, KJ, A8s, etc…
– If OR doesn’t call 3bet OOP and plays a 4bet or fold strategy, I guess it’s better to call with hands like 99, AJ, AQ, etc… and play against a range we crush no? Unless if we have a dynamic with him and we think we can 3bet/go broke for value with these hands because if we plan on folding vs his 4bet we are juste turning a good hand into a bluff and it’s probably better to polarise and 3bet with 85s or A2o…
To take your exemple Bennymacca, it means that if he 4bets you are folding (as we are totally crush by his 4betting range), so I guess the 3bet is okay only if his calling range is wide enough because if he folds too much and 4bets a really strong range, it’s probably better to polarise and 3bet 85s and call with AQ no? The more he calls the more we can 3bet hands like AQ no? This is why I hate these kind of spot with no information on OR, maybe 3betting should be our default play but I feel fishy when I 3bet, gets 4bet and have to fold because I have no information on his 4betting range
Maybe I’m wrong but it seems pretty logical to me. Anyway ty again for your answers ^^
May 30, 2012
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benny think you misread the first post, it was v an opponent with a 4bet/fold strategy rather than someone we can 3bet for thin value.
October 6, 2010
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Well against a 4bet and fold strategy I think my argument is valid but for the reverse. Villain can now cbet with his whole range and make us fold our flatting range here, which is also capped usually. Unless we are looking to flat aq high on multiple streets we get ourselves into a guessing game
So unless he is so tight that he 4bets his whole utg range, I still think we show immediate profit by getting him to fold a ton. And if he is that tight we should be folding pre
May 30, 2012
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but if we show an immediate profit 3betting him with any hand there, doing it with AQ seems like a waste as it is only marginally better than A2o and it damages our flatting range, because v ep opens its often better to almost not have a 3betting range than to raise merged.
Also AQo i only one of the hands we flat so even if we just fold some flops, we wont be folding enough of our range to be unprofitable
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