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April 20, 2015
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Hi Guys,
I'm a first time poster. I'm not posting a specific hand history here. It's more a general question about mid-late stage play.
This is a spot that I have almost always choose to take in the past, with good overall return, (was it just run good?).
This time, it came up in a $150k tournament online in NJ. 699 players top 90 cash. Now this is the biggest online tournament I've played tbh. I jumped into a freeroll and won the entry. So.. When this situation arose, I was a little gunshy, and choose the safe route, which ofcourse inturn, caused me to miss almost a triple up approaching the bubble.
My question is…
Is this a spot a lot of top players and regs choose to take as a 3Bet shove?
Or
have I just been wayy too lucky, and am too optomistic with this in my arsenal?
the spot…
my parameters to shove..
: 22-26ish BBs
: Co/BU/SB/BB position
: against an EP or MP raise of less than 3BBs and villian aggressive preFlop.
the cards:
Suited connecters and gapped suiteds. 64s, 53s, 97s.
With table very average in chips about 10 from the bubble.
I've done this in smaller $5mtts with 53s and tripled through, and T8s and doubled, able to run to final tables in both after that. Only 1 out of the 5 times I used it did I get called and bust out. 2 times I was able to get the folds.
So, Is this a Steal Spot that's pretty common to take?
In the $150k, If I would of pulled the trigger I would of gotten 2 callers and ended up making trips for the 3way win, and a 72bb stack going into the bubble. however, I'm really just looking for the folds here.
Instead I was only able to get to 2nd level of cash.
So, anyone want to give thoughts on these spots? It has just been a curiosity boiling in my mind.
I know the answer more than likely shows in the videos, being a new member though, it's a spot that comes up often for me, and I thought could be the good base of a thread. If not… please excuse me, and I'll come around to a better way to get involved.
Thanks!
John
February 28, 2015
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Ah I mean you are going to get folds most of the time. But with that many big blinds the times you get called your hands are going to be dominated usually as people will only call a shove that large with a monster. Around the bubble people are skiddish and that will mean in this spot they’ll fold hands like A10 and AJ there which only leaves a few premium hands for them to call with..probably QQ+, AQ suited+. If you feel like the guy is very aggressive preflop then you can do this if you want to steal some blinds. If you do it often enough you’ll get called eventually and typically bust out unless your hand gets a bit lucky. Suited connector hands play well when shoved over more than an iso as the original aggressors will rarely have blockers on you.
November 24, 2013
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If you have a specific example as you mentioned why dont you post it? Also, what was the buyin of that tourney? And why do you think you wouldve tripled up? They could have folded and if they did not you were probably behind. I dont think youre thinking of it the right way. When you 3bet shove this way you obviously want the others to fold since youre most likely behind when you get called. So it all depends on the players and table dynamics, there is not a standard recipe for this.
June 23, 2012
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Not sure why one of your criteria is “raise of less than 3BBs”. Surely, the more BBs in the pot, the better the spot is, as long as it's still just a single raise.
emb
April 20, 2015
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@Fire
I tried posting a hand with this and the converter wasnt working. I've been a little tight on time, and haven't been able to look more into it. Turns out the BB and original raiser both did have hands in that spot, so would of gotten both to call shove that time.. Ofcourse not the results I wanted, but would of made 3 6's by SD. and won.
I understand and am thinking of it as a steal shove to get the table to fold. I ofcourse know I'd be behind by a caller. But… Is there value in the amount of times you do get it through, either to folds (mostly) or drawing out relative to the amount of times, precieved we get called and lose? To me… it seems like slightly profitable, am I kinda on track?
Buy in was $200. It was a $150k series main event on one of the US, NJ sites. However… I freerolled into it by winning a 1 tix, 430runner event. So it was a little easier looking for unique spots.
@emb
Good question… I didn't have a definitive reason for this. Just most of the field at the late ante stages of the tournaments are opening for 2.2-2.5x in the games I play. So was that my natural instinct to balance this spot, and not just spew every single time it comes up… there obivously has to be a cap on this play while there is still fold equity in our stack. If a MP player opens say 26% of hands from that specific position, and this time opens for 8BB's it's a more attractive spot for you? since at that point your risking say 22BB to win over 10. Instead of risking 22 to win only 5 or less.
@sonicNY
You're referring to shoving over a short stack shove? Sorry, I was a little confused. Due to the fact a short stack shove won't have blockers with the expection of weak aces and the combos of pocket pairs, which we block anyway, correct?
or another track?
November 24, 2013
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fishingfreak said:
@Fire
I tried posting a hand with this and the converter wasnt working. I've been a little tight on time, and haven't been able to look more into it. Turns out the BB and original raiser both did have hands in that spot, so would of gotten both to call shove that time.. Ofcourse not the results I wanted, but would of made 3 6's by SD. and won.
I understand and am thinking of it as a steal shove to get the table to fold. I ofcourse know I'd be behind by a caller. But… Is there value in the amount of times you do get it through, either to folds (mostly) or drawing out relative to the amount of times, precieved we get called and lose? To me… it seems like slightly profitable, am I kinda on track?
Buy in was $200. It was a $150k series main event on one of the US, NJ sites. However… I freerolled into it by winning a 1 tix, 430runner event. So it was a little easier looking for unique spots.
Well, it can be profitable depending on the players at the table and particularly if you have a tight image. Sure theres some added equity in the times you draw out, but I would not recommend not to look at it based on that you wouldve drawn out. If they both had hands chances are it was the wrong spot and you would have been a favorite to exit the tourney. At 200 $ online many players know that 3bet shoving ranges may include subpremium hands like the ones you mentioned and adjust their calling ranges accordingly.
April 20, 2015
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Thanks Fire,
I needed that bump in my reasoning, that some players at this level will see right through it, and try to call it that much lighter. However, I would also choose to play my value hands the same way. In most spots with TT+, AK, I would choose to shove over a wide opener with my 22bb stack. Unless the dynamic gives me a reason to adjust that.
So, in effect…
Isn't this move, once in a while; keeping my Shoving range, at that effective stack size, balanced?
taking into a account I play most tournaments, with some of the same players at this current table.
Since the NJ player pool is so small, it's a lot of the same regs spread from the $5 to the $200mtts. So, in any random MTT, you're more than likely to have history on a chunk of the pool.
April 5, 2014
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I havent taken my ADD medication today so maybe I am reading it wrong but it seems like you are being a bit results oriented in your thinking. You are shoving sub premium hands at a time when they are likely only to be called with something that has you crushed. I see no probloem with 3 betting these hands in position to try and resteal or If the initial raiser is a weaker player id probably call the smaller opening raises from the blind to see a flop to either hit hard or get away from but i think that might even be wrong as well and might be a leak of mine.
January 29, 2015
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Hey John
I like the way you're thinking. I am a big believer in situational play. I think that top pros look for these spots all of the time and that is why their game is on another level. I think the parameters you laid out are a great spot. Aggresssive PF raiser, the bubble dynamic, suited connectors/gappers, and your stack size. Of course, you are looking to get folds and when you do get called you are going to be behind but those hands play well against the hands that are going to call. Running into big pocket pairs is just part of the game. I think you are putting yourself in a position to run deep and keep yourself from getting too short stacked. I'm working on putting plays like this in my game when the situation comes up. I'm not a theory expert this is all just my opinion. Thanks for the post!!
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