Home
(0 votes) 
March 21, 2014
Offline
Like the title says, it wasn't my hand, but if I was in the same situation I wouldn't know what to do.
Situation:
Button: 45.000
SB: 45.000
BB: 120.000 (50BB)
sb: 1200, bb:2400 with antes
The button minopens, SB calls & I fold (as BB).
The flop comes two 
– something like: 2 8 J
The button bets 30% of pot & the SB shoves (he had AJo) & the button snapcalls with the spade draw(Q9).
What would you do as the button? & What do you think of the SB shove.
payout: 1st 450
2nd: 285
3rd: 198
Fwiw: he binked the third spade on the turn
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
Offline
SB really should just shove pre, and he's probably losing value by just check/shoving flop instead of check/raising smaller to induce, but in general I don't think either of those two players could avoid stacking off with those hands on that flop. Either it goes check, bet, raise, shove, call, or it just goes check, shove, call.
Q9s on that flop has perhaps as many as 15 outs (9 spades, 3 non-spade Ts, and 3 Qs), and may even be ahead if SB is check/shoving a hand like T9. Really impossible to fold that hand given how much is in the pot. ICM is somewhat of a factor here, but not so much postflop in a spot like this.
But for the record, SB probably should not be flatting pre with anything here. OOP, 19bb deep – more or less shove or fold for him.
March 8, 2013
Offline
One thing I would do differently as button here is just limp pre-flop. Your hand is too good to fold, but when you minraise, you are going to be facing a shove from the big stack so often and not really love calling when losing gets you third, but winning only gives you a small chip lead. By limping, you are more likely to play a flop in position, and more likely to get the SB to come along – he's the one you want to play against anyway.
In general, I like limping in late position in ICM spots to make it harder more people to ICM-**** me.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
Offline
I don't mind the idea of limping, but the problem is it does get easy for people to mess with you in ICM terms after a while, because they figure out you're not limping strong hands, and it actually makes it cheaper for them to put pressure on you in what's effectively the same spot.. Of course if you are going to limp strong hands then that does balance it somewhat, but I'm not a fan of doing that when getting max value from your coolers at this stage of the tournament can make such an impact on your ROI.
The paradox of the limping strategy is that it probably works best against the players you have the biggest postflop edge on, but they're also probably the same players who aren't going to be ICM aware in the first place, thus negating the need to actually adopt such a strategy. There may only be a very small cross-section of mediocre TAG regs against whom limping is best here.
March 8, 2013
Offline
I guess my thought is that usually these spots last only 5-10 hands, so villains won't know if I'm limping strong hands or not. If I get a strong hand before I've limped at all, I will just raise, but if I get one after they have seen me limp, I will consider how my limps have been doing. If they are frequently getting raised I will limp/re-raise, but if they are not, I will raise myself.
I like your point that players who are weak postflop are also less likely to know about ICM, however, I think in the spot described above, your opponents don't need to know about ICM. When the big stack is the big blind, you are just naturally going to get played back at by that player more than from the small blind, and that is true if both are not considering ICM, if either one of them is considering it, or if both of them are considering it. If the big stack was in the small blind I would definitely raise to attack the other short stack's chips.
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
Offline
I agree with everything you say, except the idea that you're getting played back at from the big blind more than the small. It depends on your definition of 'played back at' is – the big blind is going to be in the pot more often, but considering the big blind can check and take a flop for free, often in a heads-up pot, but the small blind has to think about possibly playing multiway. So I think the small blind actually shows aggression more often preflop to take the pot down or isolate you, even though the big blind is going to be in the pot more often.
July 12, 2013
Offline
I'm not sure I understand how raising 100% of open range is not superior to limping it? I'm not quite sure I understand how you're gonna, essentially, “balance” a limping range…??
March 8, 2013
Offline
My limping range is roughly what your raising range is in this spot, lapp3r30, probably a little wider. It is completely balanced. As theginger45 says, the drawback is that I will make less money from cooler situations, but to think I can't balance it just shows that you don't believe me that I will limp strong hands. If my opponents have seen me limp, I most certainly will.
Ginger, you're right that the SB is more likely to raise, whether I limp or open. My point is that if I open, the BB is more likely to be in the hand with me than the SB. Basically the SBs folding range is much wider. Since it's the SB I want to play with for ICM reasons, I want to give him more of an incentive to come along, and risk fewer chips when I don't know if he's in the pot. If SB folds and BB raises, I can give up frequently and only lose one big blind. If the SB raises, I can ignore ICM and play against him in position.
July 12, 2013
Offline
I wonder if this is why, I think its DJ, limps all his btns and has only a fold/raise range. That seems to be a great way to balance his range.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Offline
markconkle said:
I guess my thought is that usually these spots last only 5-10 hands, so villains won't know if I'm limping strong hands or not. If I get a strong hand before I've limped at all, I will just raise, but if I get one after they have seen me limp, I will consider how my limps have been doing. If they are frequently getting raised I will limp/re-raise, but if they are not, I will raise myself.
This might be an effective exploitive strategy, but it's very easy to exploit. You seem to think that the first time you limp your opponents will just be like “Geez better be careful he could have anything” when in fact many people will probably assume you are weak. For one thing, there are a lot more weak hands than there are hands so strong that you'd rather trap than give yourself a chance of winning the pot immediately. For another, plenty of people will only open limp weak hands here. By actually limping only weak hands the first time you do it, you are giving these players exactly what they expect and opening yourself up to exploitation.
If you later adapt to gameflop (ie limp-raise if you've been getting raised), then you need to realize that this is info available to all players, and again your opponents may take this into consideration. People are capable of saying to themselves “Hmmm no one's been raising his limps but they've been shoving over his raises, so it wouldn't make any sense for him to limp a big hand.”
Basically you're assuming that your opponents will continue to play a static strategy and assume the same about you. In fact, changing your strategy based on fairly obvious gameflow stuff is really not that hard to predict. Of course plenty of players won't do it, but don't delude yourself that you are tricking any smart players with this.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Offline
Villain's draw is clearly good enough to get it in after betting. The real question is whether he should have bet in the first place. Ideally with a draw this strong he'd rather be the one making the last bet than calling it, because there may be some hands that you would shove but not call, and he presumably does not want to induce action from those hands. If I were him I'd consider checking flop and shoving over many turn bets.
With the nut flush draw, it would be a different story, because then he'd be more welcoming of action from dominated draws. But here inducing a shove from something like QT would be a disaster for Button.
March 8, 2013
Offline
Okay, that makes sense against sometimes raising with the nuts. I still think that limping is actually better because with 19BB shoving over minraises is pretty nice with ICM consideration, that by limping you get the chance to be the one to shove preflop. I guess they can combat this by shoving over your limps, but not sure how often they can do this profitably given that you have a stronger than random hand range, and they are risking 6 times the pot. With SB likely to not folding getting 6 to 1, even the BB has to worry about shoving into two players. Granted, SBs range may or may not include any hands planning to call, but my guess is he does at least some amount of the time. I just wonder if you've really considered the possibility that limping may sometimes be correct in this precise spot, with like, 15-19BB with 3 players and you are on the button and both you and the SB have very similar stacksizes and the big stack has more than doubling up against each other we are still in second place. There is just so little incentive to flipping with the other short stack even if you are ahead, so shoving over raises is just way too good. You should compensate by not raising.
Another possible solution here would just be to only open-raise, but play much tighter than most players would so that you can often call their shoves. Perhaps, 22+,A2s+,K7s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,54s,Broadway Offsuits (24% of hands). Against this range, they cannot shove very often.
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
52 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
adrianvaida2525
Anteeater
Laggro
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12008
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1
