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265d KO 20k on Stars, FT
NST
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June 8, 2012 - 11:20 am
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Hey guys

 

First a few things, I usually def don’t play stakes this high so I’m not really sure how the regs think in these stakes as it’s a really tough field overall. As, I guess, pretty much everyone on Skype group knows, I tried to reg into 2d rebuy but the lobby lagged and accidentally went to 265d KO on Stars with one hour late reg… You can imagine how I felt that moment laugh

Anyways, a little info about the hand. We have played maybe one orbit or so the FT and I don’t have massive reads on anyone. I guessed pretty much all of these guys are very capable and someone mentioned in the chat that TheLipoFund is a very good and aggressive regular.

The reason I flatted pre was to induce a 3bet so I could 4bet jam over it. I didn’t feel comfortable in 3betting and calling a 4bet for my stack, maybe scared money, but just felt like these guys are very capable to squeeze here. Also I think my stack size is pretty perfect for the 4bet shove.

I’d like to know what do we do here otf. I understand checking back is a good option and would be glad to hear comments about it too. Anyways I took the betting line and faced a c/r.

 

…..ndNo=20537

 

Thanks in advance! Will post my thought process later.

OkieNGa
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June 8, 2012 - 12:09 pm
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       First, in these higher stakes, I have found that it is best to play your normal game but add a little bit of creativity.  These guys generally understand lines, what they mean and are willing to fold bigger hands which allows you to pull off lines that you could not in lower buy in tourneys.  This adds some variance to my play but also makes me a little less predictable than the ABC poker I play at lower buy ins.  On the other side of this coin, sometimes, just because I am playing against what I perceive as craftier players it causes me to level myself into a bad move, I am still trying to figure out a balance.    

       Now to the hand, I am sure most of these guys have shark scoped you which gives you a meta-game image, which is what I call a conclusion someone comes to based on the info they have available without actually seeing you play.  Online it is sharkscope, the bluff dB ect, live it is your dress, your age etc.  You are playing WAY above your normal buy in, this means they are thinking you are scared money, just like you stated, wanting to do everything you can to move up the pay ladder and not making stabs to win the big prizes (1-3). Think about this and use it.  I do not mind flatting to induce a 4 bet jam scenario, but I prefer a raise.   Using our “meta-game” image it screams strength because you should never be raising light and we are able to range our opponents much easier and we can find out where we are for 5k in chips instead of the 6.5k you have invested after the flop raise.

     As played in referance to the check raise, I still think he is playing off your metagame image.  If you call you are down to 20BB and undoubtably be faced with a turn raise that would represent half of your remaining stack and he knows this.  To me, this decision is for your tournament life, I jam and am happy about it for all the reasons stated, not to mention I rarely give UTG raises any credit.

pokerkids
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June 8, 2012 - 6:15 pm
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Well I can’t say i play regularly at these stakes, but some of the thought process is the same. I flat here all day with our stack size, and especially because if we 3 bet we are only getting played back at by hands that beat us. If they do know that we are playing way above our average buy in then our 3 bet would scream strength, and aq would be at the bottom of that range. They wouldnt give us credit for 3 betting light, or even having that wide of a value range. They would never 4 bet jam worse aces, and doubt they get in anything less than 1010. Also, we wouldnt expect them to flat a 3 bet oop, so by 3 betting we are turning our hand a bit into a bluff because we arent too happy calling a jam by the original raiser, or from someone behind us. If we flat, we can definitely 4 bet over a squeeze. If we are a random to them, then they won't expect us to have a real hand (or play one trickily), and can squeeze the original raise, expecting us to fold a large percentage of the time.

As for the flop, I don’t mind a check back since our hand isnt that vulnerable, but betting is fine too. I dont think shoving over his raise is that good though because i doubt he calls with worse (maybe kq?, but seems like a terrible line to take with top pair). I would just flat and probably shove over his bet on the turn or call a jam. I could see him taking this line against a good reg, with a value hand (to mix it up), but you are a random to him, and this doesnt seem like the most ev way to play a hand like a set or aa/kk. 

FkCoolers
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June 8, 2012 - 7:16 pm
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No one’s 3 betting a utg open and a utg+2 flat without having a hand that you really don’t wanna see. FT’s generally play a bit tight since you get down to 6 people or so. 

How’s our villain been playing overall? VPIP/PFR? Especially from EP. 

Far as postflop goes I’m not sure you get 3 streets of value from anything except KQ and a good player should be able to fold KQ. 

Since the only real scare card is a King, I’m tempted to check back flop to disguise hand strength. 

Edit: P.S. nice reply, James

OkieNGa
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June 11, 2012 - 11:02 am
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OkieNGa
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June 11, 2012 - 11:05 am
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FkCoolers said:

Since the only real scare card is a King, I’m tempted to check back flop to disguise hand strength. 

 

Why play so meekly?  I would say another scare card is a J in addition to the K.  We always talk about being aggressive, and a check just seems soooo weak and opens doors for us getting out played.  I keep hearing Casey in my head, if you have a hand bet it, don't get cute.  Are you really playing a cat and mouse game with TPTK with 26 BBs behind at a final table?  When we get played back at do we always assume that we are beat?  I sure don't and even if NST comes back saying he was tighter than I drum I hate the check back.  This hand is not strong enough to sit and wait for him to improve his hand or to induce a raise.  At this stage of the tourney I am going for the chips and I will JAM eliminating the possibility of doubt creeping into my head if a J, K, pairing cards other than the Q hits on the turn or even a 4 or 9 to complete the straight.  If he hit a set, congrats man, or if I happen to run up againt As or Ks, nice hand.

 

I also do not like calling the flop with the intention of calling a JAM on the turn, I would rather put him to the decision on the flop.

(of course hearing Casey talk about Js like they are the end all be all nut hand on a 3 card fl board during the last TPE Live podcast worries me a bit)

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June 11, 2012 - 11:55 am
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JamesFaucette said:

Well I can’t say i play regularly at these stakes, but some of the thought process is the same. I flat here all day with our stack size, and especially because if we 3 bet we are only getting played back at by hands that beat us. If they do know that we are playing way above our average buy in then our 3 bet would scream strength, and aq would be at the bottom of that range. They wouldnt give us credit for 3 betting light, or even having that wide of a value range. They would never 4 bet jam worse aces, and doubt they get in anything less than 1010. Also, we wouldnt expect them to flat a 3 bet oop, so by 3 betting we are turning our hand a bit into a bluff because we arent too happy calling a jam by the original raiser, or from someone behind us. If we flat, we can definitely 4 bet over a squeeze. If we are a random to them, then they won’t expect us to have a real hand (or play one trickily), and can squeeze the original raise, expecting us to fold a large percentage of the time.

 

Ok, wow. This is exactly what I was thinking preflop, I’m bad in explaining my thoughts and English ain’t really my native language as you all can probably see.

 

Don’t want to give this up yet if somebody still has something to say. As I said, we had played a bit over one orbit and I had not played in the same table with this villain earlier so the sample is too small to make any assumptions. I do remember tho that he had played earlier in the FT so the stats were not 0/0, maybe something like 16/14 or so, probably had played two hands.

 

Also thank you for your posts too OkieNGa and FCoolers, really appreciate it!

 

E: ok, ****ed up the quote, too lazy & uncapable to make it right.

duggs
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June 11, 2012 - 9:02 pm
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I agree with the check back of flop, i dont think UTG opening range is ever check/folding, and the weaker parts of his range are likely cbetting this flop. Also agree that we arent ever getting 3 streets from worse here so checking back flop with the intention of flatting a turn bet. Its such a standard flop to cbet that he is basically never just giving up and he would bet/fold rather than check/call most of his midrange hands. so checking flop actually strengthens his range rather than weakens it imo. 

preflop i prob just 3bet/call as default, UTG may 4bet jam worse if he thinks we will 3bet/fold value hands (which is prob not an outlandish assumption when someone is way above their abi and on final table) and with our stack size flatting and jamming on a 3bet really caps our range, we literally have AJ-AQ and 99-JJ 100% of the time. plus when we get 3bet with those stack sizes its rarely if ever a bluff.

The main reason I 3bet/call is how awkward our stack is for postflop, are you ever floating flops you completely whiff? 

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