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I was playing a live game last night at Delaware Park – $150 buy-in, 455 players, 20 minute levels, 10K starting stack… Pretty big tourney for a Tuesday night, it was a special $25,000 guarantee, “celebrity” bounty…
Anyway, I had 2 pretty active guys on my right. The guy on my immediate right was very active & raised a lot, but showed that he could fold to pressure. I had gotten down to 20 BBs at 400/800/100 and decided that I needed to find a good spot to 3-bet shove & that if I had something halfway decent & the guy on my right opened that I'd be getting it in….. The rest of the table was pretty passive & not playing a ton of pots…
So, I was third to act, it went limp, limp by the two active guys, I looked down at 22 and decided to ship it. Guy in MP with 10BBs called with AK, everybody else folded…. He got there, of course. If he didn't wake up with AK, I would have picked up a decent pot uncontested, but I'm wondering if that was a bit spewey from early position. Is 20BBs too shallow to call for set value? Seemed too nitty to just fold a pocket pair…..
A few hands prior I had like 23 BBs and it folded to the aggro guy in the hijack & I had 10-7 off in the cutoff. Would that have been a better spot to 3-bet shove because it was from later position? That guy had been min-raising a ton and taking down pots with post-flop pressure, he couldn't have had something every time…..
After I lost half my stack to the AK, I found myself with 11 or 12 BBs. A few hands later it folded to me, I was third to act, and I had A4 off. For live play, do you want to ship any ace from any position if it's folded to you & you're around 10 BBs? I mucked it figuring I'd be in bad shape if called by another ace….. After the blinds went past I was at 10 or 11 BBs and had A9 suited UTG. I'm pretty sure I should have shipped that one, right? I mucked it…. Finally, I got KQ suited in middle position a couple of hands later, shipped it, ran into 10s (from the same AK guy), and out I went…..
I feel like since I haven't been playing online much since “black friday” that I am worse now than ever! haha. First place in the tourney last night was over $12K. Not bad for a $150 buy-in on a Tuesday night! Ahh well…….
Any advice/comments/etc on when's a good time to start thinking about the 3-bet shove live & also on my baby-aces with 10BBs? Thanks!
October 6, 2010
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gotta win flips to win tourneys man.
i pretty much agree with all of your plays. in all circumstances, they are close to the bottom of your shoving range, and i dont think its a big mistake either way if you shove or fold them, it will be close to neutral EV to be shoving most of those i would think. I think the 22 hand is ok, just sucks that villain woke up with a monster and you didnt win your flip.
I think live players pay less attention to stack size than online and for this reason it's not necessary to take spots with small edges (like the A4o hand). Folding down to <10bb's is more likely to be ok live than online (although not ever advised obv)
I'm not sure i'm jamming that 22 tbh. Kind of like having 66 UTG with 21bbs or something like that ill just open fold.
What did you make of the aggro guys limping there? was it trappy?
I agree with benny in all the other spots though, I'd def fold the A4, A9s UTG with 10BBs is probably the actual bottom of my range, and the KQ from MP seems standard but not loving it.
Oh and def gotta win the flips:)
Thanks guys for your insight. Sounds like none of it was terrible, but I think I'm agreeing with hapetimes that the 22 could have been folded… I think I just had it in my head “I'm in the low 20 BBs, it's 20 minute levels, I won't last long if I don't do something soon, I'm going to raise this guy next time he opens if I have anything halfway decent”, saw him over-limp, saw the 22 and went with it. The UTG guy was open-limping a fair amount & the guy to his left (the more aggro younger guy) was calling a lot pre – never open limped, but would call a limp…. I didn't think it was too much of a risk that they were trapping, but the thought did occur to me after I put my chips in!
I guess it could still go either way, but given what you say about it being live & having more room to play, that it's borderline as it is, and the fact that UTG could have been trapping, I probably could have waited for a better spot & just folded the deuces…
Good to hear on folding the A4 being right, I wasn't sure – I seem to recall goleafsgoeh saying in one of his videos to get it in with any ace from any position with 10 BBs if it folds to you, but again, that's online…..
Well, next time I'll just have to be better at winning my flips!!
October 6, 2010
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i think the structure is important here too. if it is really fast and the blinds are going to just about double soon, then you should treat your 20bb stack like its 10bb a lot.
i.e if it goes 400/800 then 600/1200 then 800/1600 then 1k/2k or whatever, then you should be much more willing to get it in than if it goes 400/800 500/1k 600/1200 800/1600 etc etc
bennymacca said:
i think the structure is important here too. if it is really fast and the blinds are going to just about double soon, then you should treat your 20bb stack like its 10bb a lot.
i.e if it goes 400/800 then 600/1200 then 800/1600 then 1k/2k or whatever, then you should be much more willing to get it in than if it goes 400/800 500/1k 600/1200 800/1600 etc etc
Good point – it was pretty speedy… 20 minute levels & the next few were as you guessed – 400/800, 600/1200, 800/1600, 1000/2000, 1500/3000, etc… I'm not a fan of these fast structures in general…..
October 6, 2010
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sometimes fast structures are ok, especially since most people will fold down to 5bb before they get it in.
this is the main difference between live and online that i've noticed. online your shove with the 22 is pretty standard. in live i feel it's really spewy. it's definitely a raise/fold.
the a4o and a9o hands were right. with 10bb you're not desperate as people are much more willing to blind down to nothing. the KQ hand seems pretty standard stuf as well. with the 10 7 hand in late position, i am thinking that the opener was one of the more active players? i think that would have been the better hand to shove on rather than the 22 especially if it was one of the more active players then they don't have a hand all the time.
one thing you have to remember when playing live. people don't want to bust rom the comp. it's not like online where there's another tourney starting in 5 mins and people are much more likely to blind away to nothing so anything that would be an automatic 20bb play online i find are more effective at about 10bb live and the 10bb plays are more effective at 5ish bb. that maybe just the level of comps/level of competition i play though
okidokie said:
this is the main difference between live and online that i've noticed. online your shove with the 22 is pretty standard. in live i feel it's really spewy. it's definitely a raise/fold.
So, live with 20 BBs or so & 22 third to act, it goes limp, limp, when you say raise/fold are you advocating raising here, but not all in and then folding if re-raised or you don't hit your set? Seems like that would be committing too much of my stack pre – I'm thinking now the choices would be to limp behind & try to flop a set, or fold it….
the a4o and a9o hands were right. with 10bb you're not desperate as people are much more willing to blind down to nothing. the KQ hand seems pretty standard stuf as well. with the 10 7 hand in late position, i am thinking that the opener was one of the more active players? i think that would have been the better hand to shove on rather than the 22 especially if it was one of the more active players then they don't have a hand all the time.
Good to know on the small ace hands – I was questioning myself about those. The KQ I was a bit more confident in, and the 10-7 hand may have been a nice move in retrospect!
one thing you have to remember when playing live. people don't want to bust rom the comp. it's not like online where there's another tourney starting in 5 mins and people are much more likely to blind away to nothing so anything that would be an automatic 20bb play online i find are more effective at about 10bb live and the 10bb plays are more effective at 5ish bb. that maybe just the level of comps/level of competition i play though
Very true – myself included. It's brutal to look forward to a tourney for weeks, play it, then 3 hours later I'm done… I try not to play scared, though, knowing I've got to take some risks & that blinding down to nothing is no better than spewing off with 22! Good advice, though, on how 20bb online is about the same as 10bb live & 10bb online is about the same as 5bb…. I'll have to take those suggestions in to consideration next time. I was sitting at about the table average when I had my 20-23 BBs, so it may have been a bit early to get into a frantic “3-bet ship or fold” mode…….
Good conversation in this thread. I am coming in late but I definitely agree with hapetimes. 20bb's is a lot when it comes to live play and you do not need to take small edges at this point. I like that you are picking out players that you plan to 3bet shove and so on. It is important to be patient in live poker and pick your battles with certain players.
October 6, 2010
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Raise-folding with 22 is way more spewy in this spot than jamming, but I agree that folding is prolly better
i'm prolly alone in my thinking here but if you've got say 20bb and raise 2bb wih 22 and get shipped on by a 10bb stack you can be pretty certain your 22's are 50/50 at best, and i don't mind dropping down to 18bb if i think i've got a decent advantage in skill level over most of the table.
i much prefer either folding pre or limping in to raising. i just feel a small raise / fold is much better than an open shove.
reading back my post it seems i didn't actually explain what i was thinking at all 
i also missed the part where there were 2 limpers before you acting
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