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(4 votes) 
If you flopped 2 pair and someone showed you they had a flush draw and you had 25bb+ would you shove the flop??
June 11, 2012
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pretty silly question the way you asked it.
in general with a draw you want to get the money in as early as possible and with a made hand you want to delay the timepoint when the money goes in.
the reason behind this should be clear
cheers
Sorry to upset you florianm1. How could i have asked it better?
June 11, 2012
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as i understand your question is the following:
OR raise to 2.5BB, BB flats so there is 5.5BB in the pot flop comes
JdTd3c you have JcTs while putting the chips preflop in the SB somehow turne over his cards and shows you 65dd.
so your question is to open shove the flop for 22.5BB???
that sounds pretty ridicoulus to me.
TPE Pro
June 14, 2012
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florianm1 said:
pretty silly question the way you asked it.
Come on bro, this isn't two plus two….be nice.
So you would bet 5bb to let him hit the flush on the turn??
Wouldnt you rather shove to make them pay max value to hit?
May 30, 2012
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If I opened and flopped 2 pair on wet board, I will be c betting an amount to charge him for his draw while setting up a pot size bet on turn if turn bricks and is checked to us again. If he c/r the flop, getting it in and going to have to fade. You want always charge the villians when trying to hit a draw, but at the same time you don't want to price them out completely. If the villain happens to get there, unfortunately that is poker, however you had him put his entire stack in behind. Best of luck at the tables!
TPE Pro
June 14, 2012
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daveyt86 said:
So you would bet 5bb to let him hit the flush on the turn??
Wouldnt you rather shove to make them pay max value to hit?
It depends on what we think is the best way to get value. I think that's the bottom line. It's not as much about “letting him hit” as much as it is about making him pay us off while we have the best hand.
December 7, 2012
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Said it perfectly Rivermen.
Davey, sounds like you may have been involved in a couple of hands like this where the villain has hit his flush after you just made a standard bet or raise. It’s super frustrating, and can put you in the mindset where you just want to jam every flop (trust me, I’ve been there..)
But the fact is that your 2 pair will hold up more often than not, and it’s important not to miss value while you have the best hand.
Here’s hoping you fade the next few..
Good luck at the tables..
March 8, 2013
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Does villain know his hand is exposed? If so, small bet flop, shove turn even if flush hits and villain folds to your obvious higher flush.
😉
Know this isn't what you're asking, but definitely did this to a guy who showed KK live thinking action was over when an A hit and I had 33. Works every time.
June 11, 2012
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rivermen123 said:
florianm1 said:
pretty silly question the way you asked it.
Come on bro, this isn't two plus two….be nice.
was not my intention. sorry if it sounded like that.
June 11, 2012
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so now that i trolled around a bit (without the intention to do so) here my thoughts:
In NLHE we should size our bets in a way that we maximize the EV for any given hand.
In this particular question the idea is to figure what bet size he is still calling while chasing his flush draw.
if he calls a pot size bet then go ahead and bet pot. if he calls 2pot size bets then do so.
as others pointed out based on your question its more the fact that people got there when you had 2pair more often then not. Which is obv very frustrating.
But instead of asking questions like in OP i would rather review your line and play. As long as you played it fine and made the right decision there is nothing to do. if villian hits with about 30% that still means out of 10 trials he gets there 3times.
i was guilty of the way you think at the begining myself. Just tell yourself everyday when you wake up. I want 10bad beats and 10suckouts today. start to like beats and suckouts. Because it simply means everytime you got sucked out or beat you got the money in good.
And thats all we need to do. The rest will come by time
cheers
and sorry again for being rude in my first post was clearly not the intention
May 30, 2012
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summed up by bet the maximum he will call. i would hate to shove since its the best thing in the world to be able to play perfectly v him (betting such that he makes incorrect calls with no implied odds) and we would profit.
but in real situations his range comprises of many other hands that we want to maximise our value v his entire range (whether by betting/checking to call/checking to raise etc.)
Thanks guys.
No i wasnt actually beaten by a hand like this i just thought in this scenario that both players know what hand the villian has, the villian will only call a flop bet and fold turn if he misses which means we only get 1 bet out of him. I thought if you shove the flop they could still call and when they miss you get the entire stack
Is my thinking wrong there?
May 30, 2012
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yes, because he will fold. if you expect him to call a shove then yea fine. but more likely he will call 1 or 2 bets and we offer him no implied odd so we bet for value, he makes incorrect calls, and therefore we profit.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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florianm1 said:
pretty silly question the way you asked it.
in general with a draw you want to get the money in as early as possible and with a made hand you want to delay the timepoint when the money goes in.
the reason behind this should be clear
cheers
Actually I'd argue the opposite. All other things being equal, the player with more information about his opponent's hand benefits by leaving money behind to play future streets. If you know exactly which draw your opponent has, that's one thing. But if one player has a made hand with little chance of improving (say, an overpair without redraws) and the other has a draw on a board where multiple draws are possible, I'd say the latter is better equipped to make good decisions on the turn and river. He knows which cards actually improve him and which cards are scary to a hand that was made on the flop. For similar reasons, the player in position should generally prefer to avoid putting the money in on a flip on an early street, whereas a player OOP should welcome the opportunity.
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