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2 Pair on Scary Board Facing Flop Raise by Merfinis
FatHarryPotter
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June 1, 2014 - 7:52 am
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ok, so villain in this hand is our very own Merfinis in the Bigger $33

 

Poker Stars $30+$3 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t50/t100 Blinds + t10 – 9 players

TournamentPokerEdge.com Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG+2): BB = 95.3, t9535
jimyx32 (MP1): BB = 31.1, t3105
iconoff (MP2): BB = 29.9, t2990
Merfinis (CO): BB = 36.8, t3681
hamahama29 (BTN): BB = 30.0, t3000
pingvin608 (SB): BB = 72.2, t7224
rikijs2014 (BB): BB = 45.7, t4573
barabas47 (UTG): BB = 48.3, t4830
K.Krivic (UTG+1): BB = 78.0, t7805

Pre Flop: (t240) Hero is UTG+2 with K of diamonds J of diamonds
2 folds, Hero raises to t200, 2 folds, Merfinis calls t200, 3 folds

Flop: (t640) K of clubs J of spades A of clubs (2 players)
Hero bets t339, Merfinis raises to t732

 

I c-bet wanting to get worse hands to call – of which there should be plenty, including a good number of draws and 1 pair hands which may check back if I don't c-bet

 

Facing the raise – what now?

 

Considerations:

1. Villains stack size – there is now 1711 in the pot, villain has 2729 left after the raise

2. Villain knows I am a TPE member as I have the TPE logo as my avatar and we have had some chat

3. Raise size – 2.16 x raise is small – does this indicate strength or weakness?

 

What would people do in this situation and why?

Foucault

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June 1, 2014 - 11:09 am
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It's Fat Harry Potter!

I can actually see folding here. You shouldn't try to read too much into the sizing. Good players aren't going to spew information in that way. Although your hand seems strong, I'd argue that it's really just a bluff-catcher that is unlikely to improve on future streets. Merf isn't raising worse for value, and when he is bluffing he's going to have a lot of equity. To defend against his bluffs, you need hands that will have good equity and playability against his range, and you have lots of better candidates. Presumably you'd play all sets and two-pair combos this way. Arguably even AQ is a better defending candidate than KJ since it has more outs when behind. Club draws are definitely better defending candidates. Basically, this is the bottom of your value range, and that makes it a standard fold to a raise.

ltcolumbo
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June 2, 2014 - 2:19 pm
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ok, coming back to understanding that this is (may be) a fold…  Here is my thought process which I would like some feedback on…  (maybe I am on to a huge leak here in my thinking)

I have to call 339 to win 1711 so I am getting 5-1 on the call here at this moment.  IF the turn card is Non-club that is 9 or less, its a blank for all intents and purposes, I am good in the second of the two likely scenarios: 

  • Hands that have me dead to rights base on pre-flop call: QT & the less likely due to blockers AJ, AK, KK, AA, all of which he may raise for value because of the draws out there to better hands.  But really QT is the one Hero would be most worried about.  Especially if either is a club.
  • If he is instead raising on the come (or as a bluff), in order for Hero to be a dog Villian would need to be raising with more than just a flush draw (is that right?).  Villian is then raising with a hand in the broadway wheelhouse so that he can add a gutshot or overs equity to his equity so that he has a +EV check raise play here.

I agree there are lots of things to hate here: OOP on the turn facing what will shirely (sic) be another barrel if Hero checks, but I am contemplating if we are giving up on this hand too soon?  This seems like an exploitable fold, that Hero is going to fold to pressure on a wet board when check raised?

Hero is getting 5-1 to peel and determine what to do if say a 5h falls, Hero checks and Villian decides to bet (which is not a given?).

 

Now that I have interjected all this “noise” into this, could you now elaborate on “Basically, this is the bottom of your value range, and that makes it a standard fold to a raise.”  Is Hero folding because Villian can squarely define his range and thus must be betting for value?

Foucault

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June 3, 2014 - 7:46 am
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ltcolumbo said:

Now that I have interjected all this “noise” into this, could you now elaborate on “Basically, this is the bottom of your value range, and that makes it a standard fold to a raise.”  Is Hero folding because Villian can squarely define his range and thus must be betting for value?

It's not that he can't be bluffing – he should be sometimes if he's going to raise for value, which arguably he shouldn't – but because this board is so much better for your range than for his he needs to have a lot of equity when he does it.

Assuming he has a reasonable idea of what your range looks like and constructs his own range appropriately, then whatever are the worst hands you would bet for value can't be doing well against his raising range.

The problem with calling even though you're getting good odds is that the hand isn't over yet and there are basically no turns that improve your equity. Between the times he gets there and the times he barrels you off, I think you're unlikely to win even the 18% or so of the time you'd need to. Once he raises, you have a bluff-catcher, and not a very good one. You don't have to worry about being exploited by folding this because you have so many better defending hands (stronger two-pair, sets, straights, even flush draws) that won't fold to this raise. Folding the bottom of your range ro a raise is rarely a mistake.

ltcolumbo
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June 3, 2014 - 9:43 am
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“there are basically no turns that improve your equity.” 

“Folding the bottom of your range to a raise is rarely a mistake.”

 

– The lightbulb is on here.  Let me summarize for digestability and memorization:

“When betting for value and suddenly facing a raise from a player that should know your range, you dont want to be at the bottom of you range and/or you dont want to have a hand that his little chance to improve.”

 

That sound about right.  I really want to nail this down because I thinks its of paramount importance to my game. 

Foucault

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June 3, 2014 - 10:12 am
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It might help you to think about it this way: when you raise AJ UTG and get 3-bet, you usually fold, because this is one of the worst hands you'd raise in this positon. When you raise AJ on the button, you often shove over a 3-bet, because it is towards the top of your range from this position. That's basically what's happening here: when you raise UTG and then bet this flop, KJ is one of the weaker hands you will have.

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