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$1500GTD $3.30. Open from the BTN with 66.
Maniackid11
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October 29, 2018 - 10:44 pm
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WPN, 500/1,000 blinds, 100 ante No Limit Hold’em Tournament, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager – The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: 20,650 (20.7 bb)
BB: 40,727 (40.7 bb)
UTG+1: 24,321 (24.3 bb)
UTG+2: 23,234 (23.2 bb)
MP1: 82,789 (82.8 bb)
MP2: 93,733 (93.7 bb)
MP3: 12,600 (12.6 bb)
CO: 60,475 (60.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): 24,860 (24.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with 6 6
6 folds, Hero raises to 2,400, SB raises to 20,550 and is all-in, 2 folds

Results:

6,700 pot
SB mucked and won 6,700 (4,200 net)

 

So here’s what I am thinking: I think I could go a bit smaller on the open sizing. Something more like 2250. Not sure if it’s relatively important but I know in the long run I prefer smaller sizing in correlation to our stack size. That said, I think this is correct to fold here. I am thinking that if villain was shorter, it would be ok call but I’m not exactly sure at what stack depth it would become a clear call. I’m saying I think if villain had like 10bb it would probably be a call. 8bb I would def. call. 21 bb definitely fold. But where do we draw that line between these stack sizes. What are your thoughts here?

rppoker
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October 30, 2018 - 12:37 am
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I am answering in a vacuum here since you have not given any flavor as to how the small blind has been playing. Is he a maniac? Is he a rock? Is he a solid player who bets what he has? Is he on tilt? So for argument sake I’ll assume he is a solid ABC player.

I think you original raise is mildly heavy. I agree that I would prefer 2250. That said, you should be raising the same every time so you don’t leak info. You don’t want to 2.0 every time you have a monster and 2.4 every time you have a solid but not amazing holding. That is too exploitable. So I’d say pick a formula for what you raise and stick with it. Whether it is 2.0, 2.25, 2.4 pick one and stick with it.

As for call or fold to his shove, I would fold. You are both playing pretty similar stacks. I don’t think he should be taking this line with a worse pair than 6s. So at best I think you are dominated or flipping. With 24 big blinds I don’t really love the idea of going to the mats for more than 80% of my chip stack with 6s.

ICMizer says you call with 88+, AQs, AQo.

I think I might play slightly tighter than GTO but not significantly so. 88 is very marginally +EV (+0.20). I don’t really love putting my foot on the gas pedal with such a razor thin +EV. 99 I guess I consider it, don’t love it, but probably/possibly go with it depending on how my opponent has been playing. TT is a clear call, as is better. 88 I think I pass, 99 I hold my nose and reluctantly call, TT+ it’s damn the torpedos, full speed ahead.

Now let’s say villain only had half the chip stack he actually had. If he only had 10,325 chips and shoved then I think you have a case to make the call (but just barely). ICMizer says under this scenario you call with 66+, ATs, AJo. Calling with your 6s is just barely profitable (+0.11) but it is profitable. 

Maniackid11
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October 30, 2018 - 5:42 am
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Yeah I kinda figured that at 10bb it would be +EV I just wasn’t sure. So then I am guessing with a stack size any larger, 66s become less EV of calling off. That’s a little too thin for me as well. I think I would prefer something like +.25bb or maybe a little bigger but I think it would become even more important if our stack size was even smaller to take a thin edge like that. And by that I mean we just rip it in first giving ourselves some fold equity.

As for the open-sizing, I have a weird tendency to open a bit larger when I have a shorter stack size as opposed to opening smaller. Yes, you’re absolutely right, we never want to vary our sizes based on the strength of our hands. I think varying our open sizing becomes a bit more important as our stack sizes change. I’m not exactly sure on the math because I can’t remember the formula at the moment but I think if we can still accomplish the same thing at a smaller sizing at our current stack depth it would be more beneficial than making our open size larger here. If we had a bigger stack like 45+bb than I could see opening a bit larger.

So ICMizer let’s you look at stuff like that? that’s pretty awesome! I was using SnapShove and It doesn’t have that option. Unless I get the Reshove version. Maybe it will let me do it with that one but I’m not sure. Thanks rppoker.

Foucault

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October 30, 2018 - 9:01 am
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The starting point for answering a question like this has got to be an equity calculator. Look at a few possible ranges for the SB and see how you’re doing against an optimistic range, a pessimistic range, and whatever you consider the most likely range. There’s just no reason to have a conversation about this without looking at numbers.

More than that, though, you should anticipate this possibility before you open. That doesn’t necessarily mean you shouldn’t open, but you should know what you’re going to do if a 20bb SB reshoves, and if it’s going to be a tough spot, then you might consider other options: a smaller open, a shove, maybe even a limp.

RP,

That ICMizer result you’re citing sounds wrong to me. I’d be pretty happy to call, say, AJ here. Are you treating this as a final table? Or a SNG? Unless I’m missing something, OP didn’t say anything about being in a spot where ICM was terribly relevant, and I can’t imagine that AJ is a cEV fold.

Maniackid11
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October 30, 2018 - 1:33 pm
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Foucault said
The starting point for answering a question like this has got to be an equity calculator. Look at a few possible ranges for the SB and see how you’re doing against an optimistic range, a pessimistic range, and whatever you consider the most likely range. There’s just no reason to have a conversation about this without looking at numbers.

More than that, though, you should anticipate this possibility before you open. That doesn’t necessarily mean you shouldn’t open, but you should know what you’re going to do if a 20bb SB reshoves, and if it’s going to be a tough spot, then you might consider other options: a smaller open, a shove, maybe even a limp.

RP,

That ICMizer result you’re citing sounds wrong to me. I’d be pretty happy to call, say, AJ here. Are you treating this as a final table? Or a SNG? Unless I’m missing something, OP didn’t say anything about being in a spot where ICM was terribly relevant, and I can’t imagine that AJ is a cEV fold.  

I’m starting to think this was more of a “I want to show that I am starting to understand poker better” post than I actually thought this through. For sure, I over complicated this. I honestly didn’t think about calling a SB shove from the BB. Oops. Sorry about this, guys. Thanks for that, Andrew!

rppoker
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October 30, 2018 - 9:58 pm
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Foucault said
The starting point for answering a question like this has got to be an equity calculator. Look at a few possible ranges for the SB and see how you’re doing against an optimistic range, a pessimistic range, and whatever you consider the most likely range. There’s just no reason to have a conversation about this without looking at numbers.

More than that, though, you should anticipate this possibility before you open. That doesn’t necessarily mean you shouldn’t open, but you should know what you’re going to do if a 20bb SB reshoves, and if it’s going to be a tough spot, then you might consider other options: a smaller open, a shove, maybe even a limp.

RP,

That ICMizer result you’re citing sounds wrong to me. I’d be pretty happy to call, say, AJ here. Are you treating this as a final table? Or a SNG? Unless I’m missing something, OP didn’t say anything about being in a spot where ICM was terribly relevant, and I can’t imagine that AJ is a cEV fold.  

So it sounds like I am misusing ICMizer. It sounds like you are saying that ICMizer is something you use for a) the final table of a tournament, or b) a 9-player sit n go, but it is not something you use in early and mid stages of a MTT even if people are making push/shove decisions. My guess is that ICMizer for a final table will have you calling with a little bit of a tighter range than you would do in early/mid stages of a tournament.

This brings me to this question, Andrew. What software do you suggest using for push/shove/call ranges for the stages of a tournament prior to the final table?

rppoker
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October 30, 2018 - 9:58 pm
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I just noticed that Andrew answered this question of mine elsewhere on the site. For everyone else’s benefit, here is what Andrew wrote: “I’m not too familiar with ICMizer. I have mixed feeling about HRC. The big problem with it is that it’s easy to misuse, though that’s true of all advanced poker software. Definitely don’t need to invest in Pio. I still think you have low-hanging fruit available to you just with SnapShove and an equity calculator. I also don’t have strong feelings on PT4 vs HEM. I doubt it’s worth buying PT4 if you already have HEM.”

almofadinhas
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November 10, 2018 - 10:53 am
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ICM adds money value to the chips you have, for what i know it is better to use ICM on FT and calculate money that your stack worth, and gii when there is short stacks from there, before FT, for smaller payjumps can be ok too

On other parts of the mtt you can use chip EV, pokerstrategy equilab is free and can do a good job on that.

An example of how to understand it better: lets say you are on a sng 9 man, bubble (4 left), you should avvoid a flip situation, because the pay jump goes from 0 to 1.8 buy in, so you should get better odds to flip on the buble because of the ICM, for chipEV would be ok to flip.

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