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September 29, 2012
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In this hand, I know the exact hand is a clearly profitable as a shove. But in my home analysis, I wanted to figure out what I want to do with my entire range.
Harrah’s $75 NLHE – 15k stacks – 20 minute levels.
Hand: A8o
Position: SB
Stack: 20k
Blinds: 800/1600 + 200 (9 players dealt in)
Preflop (4,200) – 6 folds, button limps, Hero ??
Here are my reads on the players involved:
Button: Loose passive player, pretty straight forward with his strong hands.
BB: Newer to table. Re-entry. Loose passive since he got here.
Ok, on to my questions to help me with the full range analysis: Should my range consist of shove/fold only? I know that was the old fashioned answer. But is there any reason to have a call range here? Could I or should I have small raise (maybe 3.2x) range with some mixed with a shove range?
September 3, 2018
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I jam all day and twice on Sunday in this situation. Based upon your read of the button he is unlikely to have slow played a monster so he seems highly likely to fold to your jam. BB is passive so he is folding a very, very high percentage of the time. If he has a monster, bad luck for you but the right move (and if he has any pair other than AA you still have outs). With A8o all you want to do is take this down without a showdown and increase your stack by almost 30%.
I would not want to just call with A8o. You have just a shade over 12 BBs. It’s a shove stack. You don’t want to play postflop with this hand. What percentage of flops would make you happy? Hardly any. Even if you flop an ace, you still don’t love it. And as for a small raise instead of a jam, then the BTN is likely to call and no matter what the flop is, you have no idea where you are.
To me, the only decision is jam or fold (and you’re not folding). The 5,800 chips in the pot are just too juicy. Jam and most likely take it down without a fight. Then with the added chips now you might have enough room to play a hand postflop (although at just over 16 BBs you arguably still have a shove stack, but now it’s a decision).
July 24, 2018
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Raise folding with this stack depth, and out of position to boot looks wrong to me. I do think it is ok to limp for 0.5 BB with some hands that flop well.
September 29, 2012
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rppoker said
I jam all day and twice on Sunday in this situation. Based upon your read of the button he is unlikely to have slow played a monster so he seems highly likely to fold to your jam. BB is passive so he is folding a very, very high percentage of the time. If he has a monster, bad luck for you but the right move (and if he has any pair other than AA you still have outs). With A8o all you want to do is take this down without a showdown and increase your stack by almost 30%.I would not want to just call with A8o. You have just a shade over 12 BBs. It’s a shove stack. You don’t want to play postflop with this hand. What percentage of flops would make you happy? Hardly any. Even if you flop an ace, you still don’t love it. And as for a small raise instead of a jam, then the BTN is likely to call and no matter what the flop is, you have no idea where you are.
To me, the only decision is jam or fold (and you’re not folding). The 5,800 chips in the pot are just too juicy. Jam and most likely take it down without a fight. Then with the added chips now you might have enough room to play a hand postflop (although at just over 16 BBs you arguably still have a shove stack, but now it’s a decision).
Thank you for taking the time to answer, however, this is not what I was looking for. I know A8o is shove. But what I am looking to answer is whether I can split my range for maximum exploitation here. These are probably level 1 thinkers, maybe a weak level 2 thinking at best.
For example, raise the top of my range, and limp behind with the bottom of my range. Shove the middle of my range. And possibly have a polarized bluff range of the hands outside of my limp behind range. However, admittedly, even though these would be incredibly weak hands, I cannot see having a raise/fold part of my range here.
September 29, 2012
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These are my results of solving for a shove/fold strategy:
1) My first assumption was based on giving the button a fairly tight limping range and only removing the top 5% of hands from his range. This would make the numbers hardest for me.
2) I had both calling off with the same strength of hands. For instance, if the BB was calling off top 10%, I had the limper call off with the hands form 6% – 10%.
3) I ignored the overcall range here. Of course overcalls will happen about 5% – 10% of the time, but for now, I am leaving those out.
4) I set an edge of 5% additional equity when called for for my range.
4) If they are calling off at the top 10% of hands, I can shove any two cards. That is my indifference point. Here is the math:
77% * 5.8 + 23%[(44.2a) – 19.5 = 0, solve for a. a = 0.001
5) If they are calling off with the top 15% of hands, I can shove about 88% of hands.
61% * 5.8 + 39%[(44.2a) – 19.5) = 0, solve for a. a = 23%. The range of hands that get 28% when called by this range is 88.2% of hands.
6) If they call with the top 20%:
46% * 5.8 + 54%[(44.2a) – 19.5) = 0, solve for a. a = 33%
Setting my edge, I can shove 30% of hands. Basically, Equilabs gave this range: 22+, Ax, K2s, K9, Q9s, QT, and JTs.
Now we are getting somewhere close to the Equilibrium point.
But next I have to ask, how many villains are calling me with top 20% of hands? Top 20% would include hands like A4s, K8s, QTo, JTo, and T9s.
This is in part a very good argument to shove wide. However, if they happen to call off properly, I can be exploited.
However, the shove wide answer has two problems: the top of my range can possibly make more by raising small, and the bottom of my range may work better as a limp behind. The bottom of my range is either going to be marginally profitable to unprofitable based on their calling frequency.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Good questions and good methodology. Whether to do something exploitive with the very strongest hands (probably just JJ+, maybe TT+) is very read dependent, based on whether you think they’ll interpret that as very strong or call because they just want to see the flop and aren’t really thinking ahead. If I were going to do that I’d make it something like 3.5bb.
The really tricky thing is in what cases calling might be more profitable than shoving. There are definitely are hands you should call if the alternative is to fold. Any kind of “rule” about how you aren’t allowed to call with a stack of this size is just nonsense. I’d be inclined to do it with stuff like 52s that won’t have very good shove equity but can easily flop a lot of equity. Stronger suited connector stuff like T9s does so well when it gets all in pre that I’d just shove.
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