Home
(0 votes) 
August 13, 2012
Offline
Hand#3068B6BD5D000457 - $1,500 GTD R&A T11976029 -- TICKETCASH -- $10 + $1 -- 9 Max --
Table 5 -- 30/150/300 NL Hold'em -- 2012/08/29 - 18:39:41 Dealer: Seat 9 Seat 1: AceLaws (7,854 in chips) Seat 2: valencia15 (5,460 in chips) Seat 3: Camo Jukes (4,539 in chips) Seat 5: dapbowler770 (14,181 in chips) Seat 7: CollegeFund4 (7,154 in chips) Seat 8: GAME_BLOUSES (3,385 in chips) Seat 9: DonkLeo (3,397 in chips) Seat 10: Disconect3d (8,465 in chips) AceLaws: posts ante of 30 valencia15: posts ante of 30 Camo Jukes: posts ante of 30 dapbowler770: posts ante of 30 CollegeFund4: posts ante of 30 GAME_BLOUSES: posts ante of 30 DonkLeo: posts ante of 30 Disconect3d: posts ante of 30 Disconect3d: posts small blind 150 AceLaws: posts big blind 300 Dealt to dapbowler770 [Ks,Qc] valencia15: raises to 600 Camo Jukes: folds dapbowler770: raises to 1,022 CollegeFund4: folds GAME_BLOUSES: folds DonkLeo: folds Disconect3d: folds AceLaws: folds valencia15: calls 422 *** FLOP *** [Jc,Tc,7c] valencia15: checks dapbowler770: bets 1,155 valencia15: is all in 4,408 dapbowler770: calls 3,253 valencia15: shows [Ts Th] dapbowler770: shows [Ks Qc] *** TURN *** [6s] *** RIVER *** [Qd] ***SHOW DOWN*** valencia15 wins 11,550 with Three of a Kind Tens
Ok so UTG raiser is min raising everytime in that position. Was it bad for me to 3 bet with KQ off?
I need to know what I should have done. After I lost this hand I lost the next 2 out of 20 hands to knock me out of the tourney.
Thanks in advance for everything!
August 13, 2012
Offline
PS. I don't know where my leak is, but it is over flowing it feels like. I really hope I win a free HH with BigDog!!
June 3, 2012
Offline
When you say he was min raising a lot in EP, was it with a similar stacksize or did he have more chips? I don't like 3betting an UTG open from an 18bb stack since he shouldn't be raise/folding here and KQ probably isn't all that great against a UTG range. I would just muck the hand. If you have a read that he opens light then it's fine, I prefer a little bit larger sizing. Post seems pretty standard with those effective stacks and your draw.
August 13, 2012
Offline
Actually he was doing this alot and his chip stack wasn't going up. He was always losing
2-4 BB everytime he was making that move. That is the only reason I 3 betted. You are
saying my 3-bet size was small though. What should I make it? What is a normal
3-bet standard raise?
Thanks
July 20, 2012
Offline
Unless you are planning to call his 4bet jam then essentially you are 3bet bluffing here. He shouldn't be flatting often enough for your hand strength to matter and so the only advantage of KQ over say 36o is when one of the short stacks jams you are in a better position when you call.
In general this looks like a bad spot to resteal – utg open from 18bbs. Against most players you won't have enough FE to make it worthwhile – for this to be a good resteal spot your read should be that he is folding at least 50% of the time.
I think your sizing should be more like 1250-1350 here in general (smaller 3bets are OK when you are getting into raising wars etc but at these stakes that's not going to happen, esp when he has 18bbs to start the hand!). I think your sizing encourages him to flat a lot there and I wouldn't be looking to get him to call the 3bet with weaker hands here because if he is doing that then he is also flatting small pps and Ax hands.
Summary – I fold pre.
August 13, 2012
Offline
runningouts said:
Unless you are planning to call his 4bet jam then essentially you are 3bet bluffing here. He shouldn't
be flatting often enough for your hand strength to matter and so the only advantage of KQ over say
36o is when one of the short stacks jams you are in a better position when you call.
In general this looks like a bad spot to resteal – utg open from 18bbs. Against most players you
won't have enough FE to make it worthwhile – for this to be a good resteal spot your read should be that he is folding at least 50% of the time.
I think your sizing should be more like 1250-1350 here in general (smaller 3bets are OK when
you are getting into raising wars etc but at these stakes that's not going to happen, esp when
he has 18bbs to start the hand!). I think your sizing encourages him to flat a lot there and
I wouldn't be looking to get him to call the 3bet with weaker hands here because if he
is doing that then he is also flatting small pps and Ax hands.
Summary – I fold pre.
DAPBOWLER SAYS:
This is the part of the game I get very confused on. Why not see a flop with KQ? I am starting
the hand with 47bbs. Even if I didn’t have a read on the player, a very common move
is the UTG raising some sort. Am I changing my variance of play folding KQ pre?
AM I just waiting for premium hands to play because I didn’t wait for premiums
to get my stack to what is was. I did however take the showdown option away. Alot
of hands I played ended on the turn due to playing the opponent and bet sizing.
July 20, 2012
Offline
You have 47bbs but it is only 30bbs effective at this table and there are a number of shorter stacks. Essentially that means you can't play deepstack poker here, you are limited by your opponents' stack sizes. Against the utg open you are 18bbs effective.
An utg open can often be a steal from some players but when they get shallow they ought to tighten up, and even without a knowledge of how to optimally play their stack size most players will instictively realise that stealing from utg is too risky from their stack. So without reads the utg open is going to be a fairly tight range against which you have little FE, it is also probably ahead of your KQ and so not a good spot to get all in pre. Because of the strength he shows with this open I think it's fine to just fold KQ in this spot. I'm not a fan of calling his open but I would prefer that to a 3bet here.This doesn't mean you are reduced to waiting for premiums, you can apply a lot of pressure still to chip up (pre and postflop) you can use correct shoving/calling ranges to get an edge and in good spots you can 3bet pre to resteal pots. I just don't think this is a good spot for it, even with your read.
August 13, 2012
Offline
Can you please break down your first sentence, “You have 47bbs but it is only
30bbs effective at this table and there are a number of shorter stacks.”
Can you explain what you mean by that? Again this is
the part I am weak at, and maybe it is the leak I am looking for. I thought I was deep at this point.
What is the definition of deep stack then? When everyone starts or has 100bbs or more?
Thanks again for the second part of your answer. It really is helping me. I guess I am a player
who has played off and on forever that I haven’t studied up on more fundamentals of the game.
Or is this more advanced part of the game?
June 3, 2012
Offline
In NLHE, you can only play for the amount of chips the smaller stack has. If you have 1000bb and your opponent has 20bb, you are playing for 20bbs. The fact that you have 1000 is (mostly) irrelevant (This is what is referred to as effective stack size). In your case the guy is opening with an 18bb stack, and while you having 47bb is great, you need to consider what his range is going to be for opening UTG on a short stack. Why I asked my question earlier is that his opening range UTG from a 30bb stack can be wildly different than his 18bb range because with a 30bb stack you can raise and fold to a 3bet whereas with 18bb you should be opening almost always for value. Totally fine to be opening KQ with your stack, but facing a raise from an 18bb stack I think it's a fold. Probably 3bet/calling AQ+/99+ maybe 88 as well.
runningouts said:
Unless you are planning to call his 4bet jam then essentially you are 3bet bluffing here. He shouldn't be flatting often enough for your hand strength to matter and so the only advantage of KQ over say 36o is when one of the short stacks jams you are in a better position when you call.
In general this looks like a bad spot to resteal – utg open from 18bbs. Against most players you won't have enough FE to make it worthwhile – for this to be a good resteal spot your read should be that he is folding at least 50% of the time.
I think your sizing should be more like 1250-1350 here in general (smaller 3bets are OK when you are getting into raising wars etc but at these stakes that's not going to happen, esp when he has 18bbs to start the hand!). I think your sizing encourages him to flat a lot there and I wouldn't be looking to get him to call the 3bet with weaker hands here because if he is doing that then he is also flatting small pps and Ax hands.
Summary – I fold pre.
Agree with all of this as well.
August 13, 2012
Offline
Julius187 said:
In NLHE, you can only play for the amount of chips the smaller stack has. If you have 1000bb and your opponent has 20bb, you are playing for 20bbs. The fact that you have 1000 is (mostly) irrelevant (This is what is referred to as effective stack size). In your case the guy is opening with an 18bb stack, and while you having 47bb is great, you need to consider what his range is going to be for opening UTG on a short stack. Why I asked my question earlier is that his opening range UTG from a 30bb stack can be wildly different than his 18bb range because with a 30bb stack you can raise and fold to a 3bet whereas with 18bb you should be opening almost always for value. Totally fine to be opening KQ with your stack, but facing a raise from an 18bb stack I think it's a fold. Probably 3bet/calling AQ+/99+ maybe 88 as well.
runningouts said:
Unless you are planning to call his 4bet jam then essentially you are 3bet bluffing here. He shouldn't be flatting often enough for your hand strength to matter and so the only advantage of KQ over say 36o is when one of the short stacks jams you are in a better position when you call.
In general this looks like a bad spot to resteal – utg open from 18bbs. Against most players you won't have enough FE to make it worthwhile – for this to be a good resteal spot your read should be that he is folding at least 50% of the time.
I think your sizing should be more like 1250-1350 here in general (smaller 3bets are OK when you are getting into raising wars etc but at these stakes that's not going to happen, esp when he has 18bbs to start the hand!). I think your sizing encourages him to flat a lot there and I wouldn't be looking to get him to call the 3bet with weaker hands here because if he is doing that then he is also flatting small pps and Ax hands.
Summary – I fold pre.
Agree with all of this as well.
August 13, 2012
Offline
Sorry for all the double prints on this forum. Thank you for the explanation of
effective starting stack. It really explains alot. Are there any videos or articles
on here that show more examples of effective starting stack? Is this a normal
flaw in people's game or is this something that beginners know? Should
I already know this?
July 20, 2012
Offline
to be honest I have no idea how many players are conscious of effective stack sizes but it is an important concept not only because it partly dictates how you play but also means that once you are aware of their stacksizes you are going to have a much better idea of how they are playing.
“You have 47bbs but it is only
30bbs effective at this table and there are a number of shorter stacks.”
Can you explain what you mean by that? Again this is
the part I am weak at, and maybe it is the leak I am looking for. I thought I was deep at this point.
What is the definition of deep stack then? When everyone starts or has 100bbs or more?
I think Julius covered this but your effective stack size is only as big as the next biggest stack. In other words at this table you can only ever play for 30bbs out of your stack, which means that while you are relatively deep you are playing shallow stacked once you are in a pot. To play deepstack poker your opponent must also be deep – you aren't going to be able to make some plays against a shallow stack because they are going to be pot committed early on in the hand.
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
73 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
adrianvaida2525
Anteeater
Laggro
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12008
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1
