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(1 votes) 
August 24, 2015
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This is a good reg and he has not shown too much craziness so far but sure he is opening wide with his bigstack. Felt like i played this hand poorly or am i being RO? Easy fold OTR vs that sizing?
No Limit Hold’em Tournament T1,250/T2,500
Buy-in: $100+$9 USD Hold’em No Limit
PokerStars
3 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com: Poker HUD for Mac and Windows
Stacks:
BTN – BTN (T133,547)
SB – SB (T77,438)
BB – Hero (T68,015)
Preflop: (T4,650, 3 players) Hero is BB with 8♠ T♠
BTN raises to T5,000, 1 fold, Hero calls T2,500
Flop: 9♥ 9♠ T♣ (T12,150, 2 players – Hero: T62,715, BTN: T128,247)
Hero checks, BTN bets T6,075, Hero calls T6,075
Turn: Q♠ (T24,300, 2 players – Hero: T56,640, BTN: T122,172)
Hero checks, BTN bets T12,150, Hero calls T12,150
River: 4♦ (T48,600, 2 players – Hero: T44,490, BTN: T110,022)
Hero checks, BTN bets T24,300, Hero calls T24,300
Total Pot: T97,200
BTN shows Q♣ A♦ (two pair, Queens and Nines)
Hero mucks 8♠ T♠
BTN wins T97,200
June 11, 2012
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i can see a c/r to 14k-18k on flop as we are very vulnerable to overcards and villain will often see river for free if we just call. I also do that frequently with a 9x or some draws.
as played fold river. We re blocking a lot of his FDs that he triples as a bluff
May 20, 2015
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I think this would be a good hand to post without results, there’s likely to be some bias in peoples opinions once they see the outcome of the hand. I like the line you took until the river. I don’t think he has enough bluffs to make the river call profitable.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Actually I’d seriously consider folding turn. There’s a significant risk that you’re drawing to two outs, and even if you aren’t, his bluffs will have good equity. There just isn’t enough value in this call to make it worth the risk at a FT. Keep in mind that Q is a pretty good card for Hero’s range, it improves QJ/KQ/KJ, so the T8 really should be just about the bottom of our range on turn. Even without the FT dynamic this might be a fold.
C/R flop would a big mistake, for the same reasons. Florian, your arguments are entirely about the value in Villain’s folds, but if he folds, then your cards don’t matter, and you’d be better off making this play with hands that have less showdown value. Truthfully, though, I don’t think Hero should do much C/R on this flop at all, because there are so few hands with which he should be trying to play a big pot, and all of the best C/R bluff candidates play pretty well as calls, too.
The way to deal with overcards is to have other hands in your calling range, like the broadways I mentioned above, that can continue on those cards but not on blanks. That way, you aren’t vulnerable to either a heavy bluffing or a low bluffing strategy.
June 11, 2012
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Hey Andrew,
i think on the FT i agree it is not good to c/r.
But, with no ICM implications why is a c/r so bad?
We still have plenty of high card combos that we c/c but also have some that we might c/r (e.g.KJo)
We also have plenty of Tx that we c/c like AT,KT,QT. so also here our range seems protected.
With the actual hand i think its desirable to fold out hands that have 20-25% equity. Also because there are so many turns that are good for villains range and he is IP so that he can bluff us off a lot of equity.
also for the turn. if the card is so good for his range does this not make him bluffing more? this would than mean that we should call more often? or would you just accept the fact that we have to overfold on this board a lot?
August 24, 2015
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Foucault said
Actually I’d seriously consider folding turn. There’s a significant risk that you’re drawing to two outs, and even if you aren’t, his bluffs will have good equity. There just isn’t enough value in this call to make it worth the risk at a FT. Keep in mind that Q is a pretty good card for Hero’s range, it improves QJ/KQ/KJ, so the T8 really should be just about the bottom of our range on turn. Even without the FT dynamic this might be a fold.C/R flop would a big mistake, for the same reasons. Florian, your arguments are entirely about the value in Villain’s folds, but if he folds, then your cards don’t matter, and you’d be better off making this play with hands that have less showdown value. Truthfully, though, I don’t think Hero should do much C/R on this flop at all, because there are so few hands with which he should be trying to play a big pot, and all of the best C/R bluff candidates play pretty well as calls, too.
The way to deal with overcards is to have other hands in your calling range, like the broadways I mentioned above, that can continue on those cards but not on blanks. That way, you aren’t vulnerable to either a heavy bluffing or a low bluffing strategy.
Must be drawing to at least 3 outs with the J
. Is the chance of our us running into FH so significant that drawing to a flush is not good enough to call? I thought we had enough equity with the flush draw to call with 3 clean outs and the potential of villain giving up OTR for the few times he 2 barrel bluffs. But then again i see your arguments and I´m sure you are 100% right as always 🙂
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Whoops I missed the flush draw, in that case yeah call turn.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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florianm1 said
Hey Andrew,i think on the FT i agree it is not good to c/r.
But, with no ICM implications why is a c/r so bad?
We still have plenty of high card combos that we c/c but also have some that we might c/r (e.g.KJo)
We also have plenty of Tx that we c/c like AT,KT,QT. so also here our range seems protected.
With the actual hand i think its desirable to fold out hands that have 20-25% equity. Also because there are so many turns that are good for villains range and he is IP so that he can bluff us off a lot of equity.
also for the turn. if the card is so good for his range does this not make him bluffing more? this would than mean that we should call more often? or would you just accept the fact that we have to overfold on this board a lot?
Think about it this way: why are you check-raising this hand and not some other hand? What is your plan if you get called? It sounds like you’re hoping V will fold to your check-raise, in which case you are basically bluffing. So what makes this hand more appealing for bluffing than weaker hands that I assume you would not check-raise, like 6d 5d?
As for the turn barreling, you seem to assume that V knows what you have. I don’t think a Q is intrinsically better for his range than yours. I think you should be check-calling lots of hands that would be improved by the Q, which means he can’t just bluff with abandon.
If you follow your logic, you run into a sort of death spiral: it’s a good card for him to bluff, which means I should call more, which means he should bluff less, so I should call less, so he should bluff more, so I should call more…
Any time you run into one those, you have to either believe you can outguess your opponent or try to find some sort of mixed strategy that prevents your opponent from bluffing either too much or too little. That means having both a calling and a folding range.
So here’s a last question for you: if you didn’t fold this hand (in the absence of a flush draw, which I missed) on the turn, what would your folding range look like?
January 20, 2014
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When I first read this I thought this would be a perfect spot to check/shove the turn, you picking up a flush draw. Then I got to thinking about it and I think by doing that you are only getting him to fold hands that you beat and he is calling with hands that have you crushed. I like the call on the turn, and I would also check to him on the river. On the river I could go either way. I could see myself calling or folding.
Villain min raised on the button 3 handed, then after you checked 3 streets he bet 1/2 pot, 1/2 pot, 1/2 pot. The only other thing I could suggest is did he establish some kind of pattern like this before, and what did he show down?
June 11, 2012
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Foucault said
florianm1 said
Hey Andrew,
i think on the FT i agree it is not good to c/r.
But, with no ICM implications why is a c/r so bad?
We still have plenty of high card combos that we c/c but also have some that we might c/r (e.g.KJo)
We also have plenty of Tx that we c/c like AT,KT,QT. so also here our range seems protected.
With the actual hand i think its desirable to fold out hands that have 20-25% equity. Also because there are so many turns that are good for villains range and he is IP so that he can bluff us off a lot of equity.
also for the turn. if the card is so good for his range does this not make him bluffing more? this would than mean that we should call more often? or would you just accept the fact that we have to overfold on this board a lot?
Think about it this way: why are you check-raising this hand and not some other hand? What is your plan if you get called? It sounds like you’re hoping V will fold to your check-raise, in which case you are basically bluffing. So what makes this hand more appealing for bluffing than weaker hands that I assume you would not check-raise, like 6d 5d?
Get that but we are not only raising hands that are complete bluffs and have no equity. Also raising some made hands strongs and medicore help us to balance our range. And with the actual hand it is not to bad if villain folds a 6 outer hand IP.
As for the turn barreling, you seem to assume that V knows what you have. I don’t think a Q is intrinsically better for his range than yours. I think you should be check-calling lots of hands that would be improved by the Q, which means he can’t just bluff with abandon.
true that. and was i stated previously we have plenty of Qx in our c/c but also in our c/r
If you follow your logic, you run into a sort of death spiral: it’s a good card for him to bluff, which means I should call more, which means he should bluff less, so I should call less, so he should bluff more, so I should call more…
well yeah this makes sense.
Any time you run into one those, you have to either believe you can outguess your opponent or try to find some sort of mixed strategy that prevents your opponent from bluffing either too much or too little. That means having both a calling and a folding range.
So here’s a last question for you: if you didn’t fold this hand (in the absence of a flush draw, which I missed) on the turn, what would your folding range look like?
prob 66,77,88 like which we def should c/c flop. also T8 makes sense to fold turn because a lot of hands in our c/c range improve with the Q
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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“Also raising some made hands strongs and medicore help us to balance our range.”
I don’t think “made hand” vs “draw” is a useful distinction to make, strategically. The more helpful distinction is the one between monsters, marginals, and draws/air that I make in my Hand Reading series. When you check-raise the flop, you are bloating the pot. You should have a polarized range for doing this, meaning a mix hands with which you will be excited to get all in and hands where you would prefer your opponent to fold but that will not be drawing dead if he does not fold.
The problem with T8 is that it doesn’t fall into either of those categories. Sure, it would be nice for you if your opponent folded, but not nice enough to make up for the fact that you’re in a very bad spot when he doesn’t fold.
If we rule out folding T8 on the flop, which we should, then you need to compare the expected value of raising to the expected value of calling. You are really just making arguments for why check-raising would be +EV, which it probably would be, but it probably won’t be as +EV as calling. This is because basically all of the EV of raising this hand comes from your opponent’s folds – I don’t think you can continue with the hand when you’re called.
If your opponent is truly going to fold that often to a raise, then you could profitably raise any two cards. I suspect you wouldn’t do that here, and for good reason. What you’re missing is that this hand is really not much better for raising than any two cards, whereas it is much better for calling.
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