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November 18, 2013
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I think I’ve found my biggest leak
I don’t yell or swear or smash mice keyboards and monitors. I don’t punch walls or throw chairs. I don’t even bitch when my opponent hits his 5 outer and takes the pot. I just give away my stack. Often a big stack.
Its weird, I’m cruising 200 bb deep. Stealing getting away with it. C betting 3 betting taking stabs and just adding to my stack gradually. If I’m the chipleader and drop a place or 2 I ramp up the aggression. Then I lose a pot, fairly or unfairly it doesn’t matter. A flip or getting sucked out on on the river it doesn’t matter. Now I’m no longer the chipleader. I’m in 13th place. I’m still seething over losing that pot earlier and I start playing so bad. Taking ridiculous lines oop. Playing big pots with no hand no draw. Last night I railed myself firing 3 barrels in a 3 bet pot oop holding AQs on a low board for 85bb. My opponent snap called me 3 streets with a mid pp. Man I suck.
Tourny after tourny build big stack lose small pot gift away stack.
November 7, 2013
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The Mental Game of Poker by Jared Tendler would be a good investment for you, I got the audiobook so I could listen to it on the way to work.
It comes down to understanding the nature of variance, and realizing that we lack control even if we want it. Make the best decisions possible and focus all your energy on expanding your game.
I think there are lots of people who have a lot of technical skill but lack the ability to let go. Its a huge edge and one imo you need to develop to make it. Without variance the game would still be strategical but all the fish would be gone and we would make no monies.
November 18, 2013
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Thanx
I'll look into that, need a new book anyway. 
November 22, 2013
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Yeah I've read that and its ok. Another one is the Zen and the Art of Poker by Larry Phillips. Not to be sacra-religious but it has become my Bible. Another thing that has helped is listening to the teachings of Bruce Lee. I know that he was a martial artist, and not a poker player, but what is poker other than a martial art played with chips? I think people get lost when they try to win at poker, they try to beat their opponents. I started doing much better when I realized that there are no opponents. We are all in this thing together, just trying to figure out this sick little game that we like to play. Never try to outplay your opponent, merely try to be intune with the harmony of the table. When they are strong, you withdraw; when they are weak, you pursue. I think losing a pot, even a small/moderate sized one hurts LAG players the worst emotionally, because a LAG wants a big stack, they are making risky moves to accumulate a big stack. So when they lose chips, it feels like they are losing their babies. They are used to playing with a big stack, so it is tough to play with a small one. Losing chips feels as if all that hard work was for nothing. The only thing that I can say that helped me both in poker and in life is to realize that winning is not better than losing. There is always a winner and a loser and when you are the loser, don't feel bad, because you helped someone else win. All results are equal and everything is as it should be 🙂
June 12, 2013
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Wow, the first post could have been written by me after a live tourney this week. I don't tilt much at all (at least I don't think I do), occasionally – a bit too occasionally really – I make stupid moves because I am a bit bored or tired, but at this tournament I was doing fine… perhaps table chip leader, making no major mistakes (if anything I was a bit too disciplined) – I know this tournament, have won it 3 times in about 10 attempts, was in a great position…
and then my K10 loses to K2 when the K2 very small stacked big blind gets a straight on the river. This was not a big loss… 25% of my stack, I was still very competitive… but the very next hand managed to punt half of that off against some shithead (I must still be annoyed about it!), I could not even tell you what the board was – it was like none of it was a conscious decision – but then I had lost another half of my already reduced stack and I was so angry with myself that I was no longer in the right frame of mind to play… game over not long after.
The problem was not the end part, it was the hand where I played pretty much unconsciously, certainly without thinking. I cannot explain it, I have no idea why I did what I did – the hand after the bad beat…
I have known for a while that I am a bit of a schizophrenic player: I am only recereational, but often I can sit down to play an 18 man or a 45 man and invariably win it or come in the top 2… other times, I bust out early with some – to say the least – questionable plays (fancy play syndrome).
This is not just strategy!! I can always learn more but this is not the problem for the microstakes I play at. I am my own worst enemy often and hence my graph goes up, up, up, and down, down, quickly down…
It is very frustrating.
One solution is to not play when I am tired or bored (and hence looking for entertainment), but that is not the best solution.
If anyone has been experienced this, and come through it (or not), I'd love to hear from you. I know a stock repsonse is to read Jared Tendler's books (and I probably will) but I'd love to hear real life stories about this and if possible practical advice.
Tell me this is (somewhat) normal! And what I should do… (Removing the ego seems to be something that would help me and the OP. Practice, practice, practice of that during tourneys!)
June 12, 2013
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Wizard Zur wrote this: Losing chips feels as if all that hard work was for nothing
Exactly! Though I can't quite believe that winning is no better than losing… I understand – at least intellectually, if not in practice – that it is a healthy mindset.
November 22, 2013
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If you are only happy when you are winning at poker then your destiny is to become the most miserable person on the planet because no man can control his own fate. That's up to the cards my friend, you can only control your decisions.
As far as the boredom goes, maybe you should consider moving up stakes? For a long time I was a small stakes grinder and was successful. My wife asked me why I wasn't moving up in stakes despite my success and my honest response was fear of losing. I was under no real threat of losing my bankroll, even if I moved up. No it was fear of losing at all. She encouraged me to move up in stakes and my win rate has actually gone up because I'm focusing better. If the money is meaningless at the stake you are playing at then of course you will be bored, not care that much about the result, and ultimately play worse.
November 4, 2013
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I can echo what Wiz just said in the last post. You absolutely have to play something meaningful. I used to play all sorts of micro tournaments, until I finally realized that it wasn't worth my time to play for such small pay jumps. I'm by no means saying I'm above those stakes, it just isn't money that is relevant in my life. I had the same problem as most of you, where even when I did build a big stack, I'd find a way to punt it with FPS or some really retarded bluff.
Moving up to stakes that keep my focus helped a lot. It also helps the overall level of play is better at higher stakes, as it challenges me. As for controlling tilt… it takes time, and practice. I went through a lot of 2$ trinkets and a few brooms from cleaning up the broken peices. I learned that when I take a stupid beat, it's not over. I still have chips, or I have enough to reg another tournament. I taught myself to skip the next 3 hands, unless they were mosters pre (AA, KK, QQ, AK). I would play tight for the next orbit or two, and not steal. Give myself a mental break so I didn't punt away a stack on a bad play.
The other major thing to remember is NEVER give up. I can't count the amount of times I've taken a cooler, been left with less than 5BB and managed to come back. Sure… I usually bust. But there has been plenty of times keeping my cool has allowed me to recover, get a double, and start the rebuild. I actually did this today in a Turbo. I was all in in the BB about 100 away from the money. I should note I actually folded until I was in BB because I didn't want to jam 92off UTG. I tripled in BB, double in SB, and stole from Btn because I then had FE. Long story, and a few double ups later, I was in the money, semi deep.
The mental game of poker was by far the hardest for me. Learning to control my emotions and understanding that losing is an integral part of this game was paramount to getting where I have. Good Luck in your endevour to do the same.
November 18, 2013
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Thanks @ Tracy… Your post echos my feelings exactly I can feel your frustration. I’ve been reflecting on this and I can console myself by saying “at least we weren’t playing for sheep stations”. I like you am a recreational player busting doesn’t affect my standard of living at all. This also reveals another flawed way of rationalizing bad plays to myself ” **** it, its a $1 tourny, guys probably a fish”. I’m still a bit pissed at myself but, not so much about the money but because I cost myself a deep run and the spots I could have learnt from during said run.
@ zur & 1 time:: thank you !
Great advice all round. I’d love to take some shots at higher stakes and obv decisions are going to be more carefully considered at these stakes.
Thanks 1 time for the tips about tightening up after a beat and playing solid. I definitely suffer from fancy pants syndrome stabbing at paired flops oop.
I think this is really practical . Its like the other players can smell the blood in the water after you take a beat and come after you.
I know I’m always raising a mid stacks blind the hand after he takes a beat. Yum yum
June 12, 2013
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Thanks first of all to everyone who has replied to my post. I've given the situation and poker quite a bit of thought lately. I think that moving up stakes is worth trying to combat the boredom factor. Not that I deserve to do so, having followed good bankroll management and slowly worked my way up… but I'd probably never get there with variance, fancy play syndrome, my own boredom… another thing I have thought about is stopping playing for a while. Because of the honest, thoughtful and insightful comments on this thread, I will post more about my own situation on this thread. I do feel that my life outside of poker is a contributory factor to my mental game issues. Boredom being the biggest, the tilt mentioned above was just a rare explosion. Since the explosion, I have listened to the TPE mental game podcast, and orderded the book Wizard Zur mentioned and one other written before the same author (Tao of Poker, I think). When I work up the energy, I'll write about it and hopefully elicit interesting, useful comments. But for now, thanks Wizard Zur, One Time, and icantmtt (great name!).
June 12, 2013
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Okay, here is the (hopefully) short version. Over a year ago, I moved to a different country: new job, new culture, new language (one that I am slowly getting better at, but still not good enough). The substantial reason was for a relationship, and before I moved I made some friends in the new country too. With these friends, I would occasionally play home games and before that my poker experience was as a fish in a local casino, and online playing the $4 180 man with no clue about strategy or anything like that. This was the case for a few years. Since playing in the home games over here, I started to learn and – surprise, surprise – started to have occasional success. I am a far better player than I was before moving. For 2013 (as things stand), I am the biggest winner in the home game, and I know how to win at the local casino here: the scene of the crime mentioned above. (The fact that I know what to do, probably added to the pain and loss of control). I have talked about this here: …..ge-sought/ and received some good comments. Online has been up and down, I know how to win the tournaments I play most often (18 and 45 man sit and gos, often $3.50), where I can often come in the first two the first game I play, but then I get bored when I try to do it again. These discipline issues I have also discussed elsewhere, hidden within this thread: …..challenge/
In summary, many improvements over the past couple of years, but much more are necessary. I can be pleased to some extent (I'm not though!), but know I have to be more consistent and keep improving. This is nothing too unusual.
Here is the problem: with moving abroad with all that that has entailed (great in many ways, but has challenges), poker has become a larger and larger part of my life. (Raise, call etc are English words – I understand them! – it is something to share with others…) This was a slow process, from having a more rounded life over here to one where social things often rely on poker. I had a birthday reasonably recently, and there was a surprise party for me (which was nice and very thoughtful) but the idea was to have a poker tournament at my house because “hey, he loves poker!”. I hated it, and felt really bad for feeling ungrateful that many people wanted to share my birthday with me. In short, poker has too large a part of my social life, and I find that a bit boring (I cannot always take part in the homegames conversations too because of language difficulties, which are easing slowly, so boredom features again). Because of this, I amuse myself in games with stupidity and see it more as a gamble than it should be. I may even resent poker a little because of what my life has become… (it is fine really, and these are small problems compared to many possible situations). All of this is not conducive to playing good poker, poker that I am satisfied with, and does not make me want to get better off the table. (I can't seem to watch any TPE videos at the moment, for example. Despite the good, thoughtful, careful explanantions. The problem is definitely mine!)
I don't know where I am going with this… but I feel better for explaining to an audience of poker lovers. Maybe my story is familiar to some of you… I think what I will do is give poker a rest for a while until I feel refreshed and ready to play again more seriously. (I don't know how long this will be for. My guess is that this may only be for a month or so, but it will be for however long is needed). One thing I will do is keep my TPE subscription running, because I like the site, love the podcasts (more please!), and enjoy reading about people's goals and challenges. I think it is great that poker – essentially a zero-sum game – has communities where people are trying to help each other get better. There is a pleasure in this, and makes me believe that as humans we want to help each other etc. In my modest improvements mentioned above, one thing I have not really done is be an active part of a community that discusses hands, strategy, offers encouragement and advice etc. (I wish I had engaged more with the intelligent, thoughtful, helpful, kind, empathetic comments above, but my mindset (as also evidenced by not being able to watch videos) is just not conducive to that at the moment, which is a damn shame.) I will take a break and plan to come back to poker and TPE to be a more active member, and hope to share in the success of fellow posters and join them on the path to improved play. I'll finish this by saying good luck to everyone on this site in your active efforts at getting better off and on the tables, happy holidays, and see you sometime in the new year.
(It wasn't the hoped for short version – sorry! – but somewaht cathartic to get it down, helping me appreciate/understand my current relationship with poker.)
June 12, 2013
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Coincidentally, and relevant to poker, Ricky Gervais on success: …..le-nobody/
November 22, 2013
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I feel similar sometimes too. I am a goal-oriented person and every significant goal I’ve set for myself be it a fitness goal, graduating from law school, etc. I have been able to achieve with relative ease. The painful thing about poker and perhaps one reason I keep coming back is because you cannot really set goals and hope to achieve them because so much is outside your control. You are like Sisyphus, putting effort into a thing where you had no real control to begin with, which is really sick when you think about it. On top of that, there are things I would rather do than play poker. Now that I live in Orlando, I would rather go to the beach, go to amusement parks, etc. Particularly when I play and I lose, I feel like playing was a complete waste because not only could I have done something else, I also lost money. I keeping telling myself that I am a winning player over all, but it still hurts when I lose. I like poker but there is a certain stress to it that you don’t get when relaxing on a beach. Taking time off can be a good thing because when you come back, you come back fresh. But when I take time off I feel as if I am sacrificing value somehow, so it becomes a cycle where I’m taking time off, then coming back and crushing it for a while, then getting bored, then taking time off, then feeling as if I am wasting value so I come back, etc. Sometimes I would rather do something else than play poker, but then I feel like a loser bc I am not reaching my poker goals, but then when I do play too much and lose, I also feel like a loser. In a sense I feel as if poker is addictive. Not the way that most people outside to the game think of it, not a gambler’s high type addiction. But when you are a winning player, it is winning a tournament that brings such satisfaction, enough to keep coming back. Yet you will lose far more tournaments than you win, so to a certain extent playing poker is to suffer. If you are Buddhist you believe that life at its core is suffering, until you achieve enlightment, which is complete dissolution of your own ego. So in that sense, I actually believe poker mimics life, and that it helps you achieve enlightment, which is non-attachment. In the end, the only way you can become better at poker is to achieve a sense of non-attachment, which I struggle with sometimes. In the end perhaps the answer is not to stop playing poker, but to stop being so attached to the outcome. As long as you are attached to the external world, so long as your internal happiness is reliant upon external events, you will always suffer. Just a few random thoughts
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