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April 26, 2013
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This is something I actually never do (stacking off against a very strong play with a small toppair on a setheavy board without any damn good read) – unless I lose it. In the moment it felt like a super-short period of tilt. My thinking was “goddamn, I don't believe you've got a set on this board, take this”. Idiotic and uneccessary as there were plenty of spots vs. a fishy table in this deep stacked (at the time blind levels were increasing every 20 minutes).
I acted far too quickly, I don't remember exactly, but I think I didn't take more than 3 seconds before I shoved it in.
The hand happened at the end of my sunday grind sessions. I've been playing for 14 hours, this was the last tourney I was in but I still felt pretty good. I wasn't bored or anything, not tired nor distracted. This is why I wonder how this could happen and if you guys have made any similar idiotic plays and most importantly how to avoid this in the future.
Any suggestions welcome! : )
Poker Stars $5.00+$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Tournament – t3200/t6400 Blinds + t640 – 8 players
CO: BB = 67.6, t432437
BTN: BB = 52.5, t335704
SB: BB = 73.1, t467856
BB: BB = 11.7, t74588
UTG: BB = 19.2, t122700
Hero (UTG+1): BB = 106.3, t680588
MP1: BB = 135.5, t866965
MP2: BB = 54.1, t346554
Pre Flop: (t14720) Hero is UTG+1 with A
7
1 fold, Hero raises to t13888, 2 folds, CO calls t13888, 1 fold, SB calls t10688, 1 fold
Flop: (t53184) 2
6 7 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t28614, CO calls t28614, SB raises to t102400, Hero raises to t666060 all in, CO folds, SB calls t350928 all in
Turn: (t988454) 5
(2 players – 2 are all in)
River: (t988454) K (2 players – 2 are all in)
Final Pot: t988454
SB shows 6 6 (three of a kind, Sixes)
Hero shows A 7 (a pair of Sevens)
SB wins t988454
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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Stop beating yourself up and calling the play 'idiotic'. That's a huge mental game leak right there. Have you gone back and done the math to check that you even made a mistake? Calculate the villains' ranges and find out exactly how bad your play was. Figure out what gap in your strategic understanding led you to make this mistake.
Everyone has moments where they're not playing their best. But you need to figure out why, when you were at one of those moments of fatigue or tilt, you decided that this hand was a matter of “he doesn't have a set, so shoving is the best play”. Simply not going on tilt doesn't fix the root of the problem – if you don't understand what the right play is, then the times when you do something like this and run into the nuts are always going to feel like 'idiotic' plays caused by tilt, instead of a weakness in your strategic understanding.
You're being results-oriented by deciding that this was an 'idiotic' play because he ended up having a set, and you're also creating a mental pattern whereby the next time you get coolered deep in a big tournament, you're likely to do the same thing again and simply assume it was a tilt problem, instead of a strategic error.
Don't just read the HH, plug it into SliceEV or something similar. Establish his range. Work out how often he needs to fold for your shove to be good. Explore alternative lines you could take. Really analyse this hand on a strategic level. Everything else is just background noise.
Oh, and also…fold pre. That's probably your first mistake here. 🙂
April 26, 2013
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Hi Ginger.
First of all thank you for your reply and your concerns of me calling my play idiotic. : D
The thing is I think my general play is pretty solid, therefore I don't say I am an idiot in general or in regards of my poker play. It's just obvious, imo, that my specific play in this situation was more than sub-optimal, and when I see someone else play like that I tend to think “wow, what an idiot.” What I try to say is: It's not that big of a deal if you believe you made an idiotic play yourself, when your general believe is you play good poker.
That said, in this spot, I think even without running it throug slice/pokerstove I need to ask myself: What does my shove achive?
Villain will fold all his bluffs, obv. He may also fold similar hands like A7 or 87. He may even fold two pair (unlikely) and all other pairs (88 through KK, also not too likely that he would fold a strong overpair like TT+). He would probably fold 98 and most likely 54. The thing is: Villain was extremely tight over 100+ hands (10/6) and definitly a nit postflop, who probably wouldn't raise without a very strong hand, especially considering that he wasn't a shortstack.
My main concern is not how to calculate my odds in this situation, but how to avoid forgetting that thinking about his range and my range and the whole hand-situation I am in before making a tilted shove for 60+ BB.
I was 3rd/16 in the tournament at this stage, so I am 100% certain that a small raise, call-fold dependend on turn action and best of all just fold are all better options here.
Oh, and I believe that my raise with A7o from UTG was ok, since we were 8 handed, with one player sitting out and 2 extremely tight players. It was basically intended as a normal UTG+1-steal.
So, do you get what my real problem/concern is? It's not about the specific odds given in this spot, but I wonder what happened that made me abandon all my poker knowledge for a few seconds and not think about what I am doing, like I normally do. How can I aim to prevent something like that in the future?
TPE Pro
August 25, 2012
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I see what you're getting at, but it just sounds like a focus issue to me. You were at the tail end of a long session and you didn't think it through. I don't think there's likely to be any more complex reasoning than that, if you understand the hand on a strategic level. Make sure you have more energy next time, drink more coffee, stretch more on breaks, etc.
As far as preflop goes, it becomes a little better given what you said, but you're still going to be playing deep-stacked postflop an uncomfortable amount of the time. A7s I would open pretty often here, but I'd still fold A7o. I don't like the word 'steal', especially referring to EP, because it ignores the fact that there are way more important things than stealing the blinds.
My point was primarily about the language you use to describe your plays, really. 'Idiot' or 'idiotic' isn't really a word you should attach to any play or player, because it carries with it a derogatory, emotional connotation that immediately deters a balanced analysis. If you define a play as idiotic, you're going to feel like an idiot when you next make a bad play, and that's going to damage your confidence. Already I can see your confidence is damaged by the mistake, when in reality, you have more information about your game than you did before this discussion, so you're a better player now, and your confidence should be higher. 🙂
April 26, 2013
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Great answer. Actually discussing the situation and thinking about it in all aspects has helped me already.
I guess you are right: the A7o open is very debateable, I thought I had a good enough edge on the field to make it profitable to raise, and if called still would have a good chance to take it down post. That said, especially when it's so late in the session, I should just avoid marginal spots and wait for better ones. This deep I could have afforded to sit out an entire hour and still have a good shot at this.
Probably other sub-optimal plays occured in that tournament before, but without a devastating result like this. So most likely I was indeed getting tired without noticing. I definitly didn't play my A game, not really thinking about my own and villains ranges.
Also referring to it as -EV-play instead of idiotic might indeed be a good idea.
Thanks.
TPE Pro
December 30, 2013
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Sen,
Although I won't pretend to be a Mental Game expert to where I could diagnose this issue myself, but I can't recommend Mental Game of Poker 1 & 2 by Jared Tendler enough. The first step is even noticing that there might be an issue somewhere. Tendler is really good at illustrating mistakes and other apparently random mishaps in your game, and saying “oh this is usually a sign of problem A or problem B.” He then dives in depth about the origin of problems A-Z and gives you a systematic way to identify and root out these leaks in your mental game.
I used to make a lot of these befuddling errors as well. For example, I used to play pretty distracted and thus make a lot of mistakes, then go on “Mistake Tilt” because I demanded a lot of myself and would tilt when I came up short on some decision or another. Just knowing this leak existed in my game was enough to stop it 80% of the time, and reading the book in-depth gave me many other long-term solutions to my problem. I play distracted maybe 5% as much as I used to, and don't have as much of an issue with mistake tilt either.
Check it out.
January 3, 2014
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Hi. This might not be an answer or anything. But this is what I do on breaks. I get up, stretch. Maybe do some sit ups, like 10-15 is enough. Jump up and down a couple of times. When deep I have a routine of splashing my face with water. I look myself in the mirror and tell to myself loud. “Mike, play good poker. Make good decisions” Then back at the tables. I often refill coffee and also a bottle of water. I sip on it so it’s empty for next break. Downside is I gotta pee real often hehe… Shuffling chips helps me keep focus when HU for example. Hope this is small tricks you can try and maybe it will help you too.
/Mike
August 4, 2014
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I also have the same issue at times. Just rush the hand and not pay enough attention. And most of the time it happens when I hit top top and someone behind me raises me 3x or more making it look like a bluff. Then Im like what the heck, the only thing that beats me at the moment is a set. And the problem in this hand comes from the bet sizing. I dont believe you would have shoved if he minraised you. Or maybe even 2.5x you would be fine.
That big raise puts you on a tilt especially if you have already accumulated some anger/tilt throuhout the session in previous hands. I guess there is nothing wrong. You believe you are a good player. I believe you will play this differently next time.
Also, talking about focus…Try playing it *supercharged* :). It helped me a lot to remove emotions from the game completely.
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