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Handling frustration from lack of luck
TheClubber
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February 11, 2015 - 4:38 am
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The last live tournaments I've played have all ended when I got my money in good or even and got outdrawn or lost my flip. Here's a summary 

– all in pre-flop KK < AQ, lose to ace on flop

– all in on turn with 99 vs 88, lose to set on turn

– QQ vs 42s all in on turn on 754J board, lose to 2 on river

– All in on turn A7s vs AQ on A742 board, Q on river.

– all in on turn top pr (K8s) vs 2nd pr (QJo), lose to 2 pr on river

I find it easier to deal with losing when I run into bigger hands, but I feel like I am making the better decisions and the poker gods don't care. Part of me wants to play more since if I'm routinely getting my money in good, eventually the luck has to catch up with the skill advantage, and part of me feels despearation that despite habitually outplaying the competition, I keep losing on a heart-breaking river. It all seems pointless. Any advice on coping with the variance?

Geralt
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February 11, 2015 - 9:30 am
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My advice would be to take a break, not play more. You sound frustrated and that is not good as it leads to bad decisions even when you know you are getting it in good. You start expecting to suck out and bust all the time. I recently went through the same thing and took a week off, and when I came back I was so damn happy with the change in my mental attitude. When I came back from my break I also started playing a higher volume of games, and now when I get it in good and suckout I just brush it off and register for another, and sure enough my bankroll is growing.

I am just saying what worked for me, but if you have to ask and feel the need to vent about it, you probably need some time away from the tables just to get over it before you start tilting, if you aren’t already.

Another thing I have done to cope with the variance is to add some SnG’s to the mix. I fire up a MTT and maybe 3 or 4 90-180 man SnG’s to keep the variance down.

BionicApe
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February 11, 2015 - 1:01 pm
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Ah man, gravity sucks, it’s constantly pulling me down. I yearn to fly free, but this oppressive weight never seems to let up and it’s driving me crazy. Does anyone have any advice on coping with gravity?

Variance just is, man. Being upset over it as productive as being upset over quantum theory, electromagnetism, or the laws of thermodynamics. There’s not a damn thing you can do about it.

You’re focusing on the wrong thing.

You’re attention is consumed by your perceived ‘bad luck’ when all those scenarios you describe are the best of luck. Someone was willing to get it in with AQ versus your pair of Kings, that’s great luck that someone had a worse hand than you and was willing to go the distance, that’s freakin’ awesome. Every other situation you describe are a poker player’s wet dreams.

Losing when you’re ahead is a bummer, losing a crucial hand when you’re ahead is a bigger bummer, and losing a crucial hand when you’re ahead at a critical juncture in a tournament is the biggest bummer of all. But it’s going to happen and it’s going to happen a lot. Over and freaking over and freaking over… and there’s not a damn thing you can do about it.

My best advice to you would be to look at all the different kinds of ‘luck’ that are involved in tournament poker and to try to find a more balanced perspective on something that is too complex to quantify in any tangible way.

Learn the definition of variance.

Focus on the aspects of your game you can change rather than waste your time and energy on something that you can’t.

I’m sorry for the beats, bro. I feel your pain, I really do, but only up to a point because I try to set a limit to how deeply I’ll allow myself to be affected emotionally by things I can’t change.

My problem is coping with the mistakes I make in a productive manner, not letting myself become embroiled in a vicious circle of self-loathing and low self-esteem that rears its ugly head every time I make a big blunder. Fortunately I’m willing to make myself my own laughingstock and to move on to analyzing the mistake critically.

And that’s the last piece of advice I’d give you. Do some freaking math.

Being analytical doesn’t allow any room for feeling emotional and for me the change in mindset from emotional angst to math-brain breaks me out of my habituated emotional responses in a profound way. Feeling emotional impairs your capacity to think critically and I’ve found that the opposite is true as well, thinking critically prevents me from feeling emotional. It also allows me to work on my game productively rather than stew in my own evil juices.

derSchwartz
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February 11, 2015 - 1:48 pm
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I can understand the desire to play more when the recent trend has been to feel like we've played well but sucked out more than average for a certain amount of time. We've played well and our EV has been good, why shouldn't we continue and even speed up? Clubber I'm partially reading this post for selfish reasons as I'm recovering from a several month slump in which (I believe) suckouts are confusing me into doubting what should be good moves and even wondering if bad moves are good.  It's hard to get over the need to talk about it.

I think Geralt is right though that if we detect tilt, we may need to take a short break.  Mr. T. is not forgiving of any degree of good play, be it 51 percentile or god omniscient play for any duration of time, an hour or a whole day.  I wonder if natural breaks in my lifestyle that don't allow as much poker as I'd like anyway counts.  They feel like breaks but I don't think they have the full centering effect that breaks from my usual play time would have.

If you are not tilting, you could probably keep playing, I think.  Detection of tilt and of our own bad play is a skill of its own.  If you are not able to find bad plays in a whole week of running bad though, I would ask a coach for help in this area.

Good luck Clubber!

derSchwartz
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February 11, 2015 - 2:46 pm
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BionicApe,
While I think the points you make are mostly true, I think you might be assuming a few things about what Clubber is focusing on, what he knows or why he’s making his post. I think he knows what variance is, and I don’t think he’s looking for a way to stop it. I think underlying the discussion of variance is the uncertainty of if whether we can play well enough to profit in a world of variance, and a desire to figure out how to do it if we can. I may be speaking too much for Clubber, but that’s kind of what I think.

TheClubber
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February 11, 2015 - 4:24 pm
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Thanks for responding to my post. I'm trying to steer clear of the standard bad beat whining. I get intellectually that luck is necessary to make the game profitable. I also get intellectually that the more often I get my money in ahead, the more often my opponents will have to suck out to beat me, and the greater percentage of my losses will be from bad beats.

The emotional challenge is that when I lose due to a mistake, I always have the option to get smarter and try to make fewer mistakes. I can learn to not punish myself emotionally for behing human.

When I lose due to variance, it makes me feel helpless. I have no control over the turn and river, and that's what's so disheartening.

Intellectually I know it's madness to get stressed over the things I can't control. But emotionally I'm not there yet.

I guess it's back to basics – proper sleep, diet, exercises, good life experiences off the table, playing lower stakes where the pain of loss is less and probably playing smaller fields so I don't invest 6 hours before the suckout could all help.

BionicApe
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February 11, 2015 - 4:25 pm
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I didn’t mean to come across as presumptive or condescending and I certainly apologize if I’ve given offense. It’s important to keep things in perspective though. Losing when you’re ahead is heartbreaking at times, but there’s no magic formula for coping with it, it just needs to be accepted.

I’d suggest that if a person can’t deal with losing in a game that is mostly about losing, as is tournament poker, then they may want to look at other aspects of their life to find the emotional balance they need to continue.

There’s no point in talking about variance if one’s lifestyle choices are causing unhappiness. If that’s what we’re really talking about here then there are lots of things that one can do to change one’s lifestyle but bemoaning misfortune is not one of them.

Nothing I said was mean-spirited, spirited perhaps, because I feel strongly about these things, but in no way malicious. That is seriously the best advice I can give and how I personally approach the game.

Poker is brutal. There’s no way around suffering misfortune, mistakes, and disappointment. Sure, there are moments of elation, but for every such moment there are many more of anger, woe, frustration and misery. It’s the nature of the beast.

I love its brutality. I love how it challenges me emotionally and intellectually. I love stepping into the ring and testing my mettle against the katana wielding sharks, the drooling troglodytes, the merdonks, and the sicko mofos who make my life hell.

As much as I love and hate the game, poker is ultimately just a small, dumb thing when compared to the things in life that truly matter. That’s the most important thing to keep in mind. There are lots of ways to invest time and energy that are much more fulfilling than poker and no reason to play if it’s just making you deeply miserable.

I maintain though that you are choosing to be miserable about something you can’t change and strongly urge you to reconsider, broadly speaking, the way you think about luck and the role of variance in the game.

TheClubber
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February 11, 2015 - 4:42 pm
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I didn't take your comments as mean-spirited at all. Every time I register for a tournament I conveniently forget that 90% of the players won't get paid and only one will win. It's more brutal than a Game of Thrones wedding.

BionicApe
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February 11, 2015 - 4:51 pm
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I wrote the above in response to the poster questioning my assumptions and wouldn't have bothered had I seen your reply before posting it, Club.

 

I'm still reeling from a mistake I made last night.  I busted out in 9th place in a $5 3K guaranteed tournament at Carbon when I could've folded, had 20bbs left behind and a shot at winning.  I had all the information I needed to make the right play, I just didn't give it enough thought and frickin' tooled-out.  Still grumpy with myself, but I'm going to try and run it through the ICMizer to see how bad it was.  Going over my mistakes in detail is how I do my penance.  I force myself to understand my error in an attempt to come to terms with it and surprisingly enough it usally works pretty well.

 

Anyway, you seem like a good guy and I hope you work your way through this.  If there's anything I can do to help feel free to contact me.

TheClubber
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February 11, 2015 - 9:00 pm
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So ironcially, the day after I posted my bad beat frustration I dropped down to a $6 online MTT and shipped first out of 78 for $140. Then won a STT for $30. Not a huge effect on my bankroll but good for the psyche.

EllDan
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February 11, 2015 - 9:44 pm
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Hey Clubber, Most of us know what you are going through. Poker can mentally beat the shit out you on some days. I am currently going through a downswing also. One of the things I do to help is to listen to Jared Tendler’s book, “The Mental Game of Poker”. It is on audio. I listen while driving or before bed. It helps put me in a better place. Good Luck

derSchwartz
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February 12, 2015 - 1:06 am
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I would also like to apologize BionicApe for being aggro on you there. I don’t think you were being mean spirited at all, and you weren’t even talking to me so it was hardly my business.

Thanks for the tip NatSel about Jared’s book.

BionicApe
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February 12, 2015 - 1:45 am
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That's very considerate of you derSchwartz, I appreciate the apology, but the tone of my post does sound a bit flippant and I didn't think your objection was entirely out of line.  I was going more for mildy amusing in semi-serious way, but I do kind of sound like a ****, so I can't hold it against you.  In any case, no hard feelings from my little corner of the world.

Foucault

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February 13, 2015 - 1:42 am
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There have been a lot of good posts already so I just want to throw out there that luck manifests itself in a lot of less obvious ways than getting sucked out on. Putting your money in good is not entirely a manifestation of skill, in fact it's very possible to play badly and get your money in good. If you get all in with KK against QQ for 20BBs, is that luck or skill? Do you deserve to win? Why? Did you play any less well if your opponent had AA instead of QQ? Just like it doesn't matter how the cards fall once the money is all in, there are a ton of situations in poker where it doesn't matter who's on which side of a cooler, because you're going to be on both sides many times over the course of your career and you don't make money from them in the long run. If you've never read Tommy Angelo before, now is a good time to start. Google his essay “Reciprocality” and then if it is at all appealing to you check out Elements of Poker.

Geralt
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February 13, 2015 - 6:46 am
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Foucault said:

There have been a lot of good posts already so I just want to throw out there that luck manifests itself in a lot of less obvious ways than getting sucked out on. Putting your money in good is not entirely a manifestation of skill, in fact it's very possible to play badly and get your money in good. If you get all in with KK against QQ for 20BBs, is that luck or skill? Do you deserve to win? Why? Did you play any less well if your opponent had AA instead of QQ? Just like it doesn't matter how the cards fall once the money is all in, there are a ton of situations in poker where it doesn't matter who's on which side of a cooler, because you're going to be on both sides many times over the course of your career and you don't make money from them in the long run. If you've never read Tommy Angelo before, now is a good time to start. Google his essay “Reciprocality” and then if it is at all appealing to you check out Elements of Poker.

Cheers for that mate, very interesting read!  I'll paste the link below incase you guys are interested.

…..procality/

derSchwartz
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February 15, 2015 - 11:36 pm
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Thanks for the recommendation Foucault and thanks for posting the link Geralt, I appreciated that article.

ltcolumbo
the D
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February 16, 2015 - 1:29 pm
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I read everything in this thread and its all useful and helpful information.  I am dealing with much of this of late, including jokes from my wife about my legendary lack of table luck.  It used to not bother me, but lately it has so I feel like this topic is close to home for me.  Here is what I think about it…

I can control if I play well, I cant control luck.  If I make the right decision, that is the result that should stimulate the virtual reward center in my brain, not the direction the chips are sent. It hasnt been as of late, but that is MY DOING and its up to ME to correct that (easier said than done, but that is the goal).

When a hand goes south on me, I notice I play differently afterwards.  This is a huge problem and I need to get control of it.  I am always going to encounter a hand that goes south, but if I revert to a B game (or worse) after that, I cant overcome that event and it will sink me.  Whether or not the reason is our play or luck, we still need to prepare for the next hand…  It can even go brutally worse than this…  When you have a bad RUN, it gets in your head.  You allow it to color your decisions and thus it changes your path (usually not for the better).  You need to be very self aware of this.  Unfortunately, our brains are not wired that way (…..i/Amygdala) & the ability to adjust to this situation is highly individualized.  Some people even make decisions differently when hungry vs. when fed.  So your efforts to deal with losing stimuli can range from a breeze to huculean. 

I am currently diving into a crapload of psychology and mental books to determine how best to reprogram my behavior at the table to be optimal.  But I am sure of one thing.  In the long run, do you want to be lucky or play well?  If you want to be lucky, your are setting yourself up for perpetual dissapointment.  If you want to be good, then simply explore if you played the hand as good as you are capable.  That is the only true measuring stick you have.

I am additionally adding a book on meditation to my reading list as I often can play a hand WAY BETTER after the fact than I do at the table, even shaking my head at what “table me” did.  I want to see if I can clear my head or perhaps even by using a method like in “checklist manifesto”, get control of errant behavior in the moment.

novum777
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February 19, 2015 - 4:55 pm
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i'd like to second the idea of learning a new game when a brutal downswing begins--for many reasons:
1. when learning a new game, your mind will be stimulated by something positive; you'll be thinking about poker in a creative way instead of thinking about second guessing your play.
2. its kind of ok to play slightly passive money the first few times in a brand new game, and this gets that monkey off your back
3. its good cover to explain why you are playing smaller that you usually do--and this isn't just to buffer your ego--having people keep asking why are you playing that, and then having to explain the downswing etc, just reinforces a negative mindstate IMHO
4. longterm, the more games you can play, the lower overall variance should be.  there will be days when 08 is better than HE, or when stud is better that 08.  you don't want to be stuck playing in a nitty or shark infested game just because you never learned other forms of poker.
5.  oddly, stud and omaha8 make me feel like i have more control over luck than holdem.  what i mean by this is that in stud, i can keep track of the cards, which is so much more info to work with---i feel like raises or folds are more informed etc. in 0maha8 all the cards are out, so one expects a possible hand to show up etc.  
quoirien
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August 13, 2015 - 7:29 am
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One of the things I’m reprogramming myself to do is not care about bad beats – and I’ve had good success with this. One important meta-strategy of playing poker is thinking about how you want to think about the game, and then just remind yourself of this plan. It’s my sense that in poker and in the rest of life, just the process of reminding yourself how you want to think is a big push towards actually thinking that way. Having said that, I play recreationally, and seldom enough that I still haven’t run into a really brutal run. So I imagine dealing with that (beyond just a single bad beat) is its own problem, but similar. If poker wasn’t so psychologically complicated there would be a real shortage of losing players!

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