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Question about Pocket Queens with an Ace on the Flop
Shwinn
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November 14, 2016 - 6:40 pm
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Just got home from playing a live daily tourney at my local casino in NorCal. 60 dollar tourney, in the early/middle stages. Blinds 100/200, no ante. Stack sizes are mostly equal with everyone involved in this hand having > 20 bb’s. Unfortunately, I don’t know much about player images. 

UTG +2 limps

UTG +3 limps

Hero dealt QheartQdiamond in the big blind, raises to 600, both limpers call. 

Flop is Aclub6spadeJdiamond

Unfortunately i am out of position, so I check, UTG + 2 checks, and UTG + 3 makes a bet of 1300, a little more than half the pot.

I ended up folding this hand, and the UTG + 2 behind me folded also. On my way home, I was reviewing this hand and wondered if I made the right move. The range I have these guys on are most probably Ax, or any two broadway cards KJ, or K10 Q10 J10 type hands. Since both players limped, I don’t think they have any big Ace, like AK, or AsQs. A monster like 66 is also possible but less likely. I have a few questions about this hand…

1) With two limpers, and being dealt a pocket pair in the big blind, is a 3x bb raise enough? I don’t necessarily want to scare them away but at the same time maybe playing heads up with a hand like QQ would be better?

2) Being out of position, would anyone ever lead out on this flop, rather than checking?

3) And lastly, would it be + EV to check/raise in this situation to represent a bigger Ace, since I was the pre flop raiser?

I think I made a mistake and folded to a weak Ace, or a draw. In these situations I am ahead 50% of the time, and need a 2 outer the other 50% of the time. But i regret not representing a larger ace to gain some value from fold equity. Your thoughts? Thanks. 

Turbulence
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November 14, 2016 - 6:56 pm
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Hi,

Firstly I would have made it min or 4 up to 6bbs for the preflop raise. Making it 3 is just asking to be called by both players and play OOP against 2 opponents.

I am cbetting this flop 80+% of the time. As the preflop aggressor you only need to bet 40-50% of the pot to take it down. If you are called its an A or a J and when you check the turn if he checks back a) you get a free rvr card b) you might be able to consider betting for thin value against a J on the river.

aka Prophead340 aka Prophead2000 aka Turbulence_1

PocketFives Profile: .....urbulence/

kmid
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November 15, 2016 - 12:51 pm
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1)3bb is not enough, typically live players that limp off this stack depth will be very sticky preflop and relatively inelastic to bet sizing. 5bb seems like a good size to me.

2)This is a terrible hand to consider leading on. A cbet will simply fold out hands that you beat and get calls from hands that beat you. When you are beat you have very little equity vs them and when you are ahead they have very little equity vs you. You play the flop well by check folding.

3)Vs passive players (assumed from the preflop limp-call and the fact it’s a $60 live tourney), I would be constructing a very value heavy check-raise range and the only bluffs I would have would be monster draws. This is because they will only be betting with relatively strong holdings and will rarely fold.

With this preflop action, your hand, and this flop it’s going to be hard to win the hand. Villains limp calling range is likely Ace heavy, his range becomes more Ace heavy when he bets the flop. To try and force the pot your way will likely just lose you money.

Shwinn said 

I think I made a mistake and folded to a weak Ace, or a draw. In these situations I am ahead 50% of the time

Given the range you’ve assigned villain and the possible draws you’ve given him, this statement is wrong. Folding would not be a mistake and you would not be ahead 50% of the time. Download Equilab, it’s free and will help with evaluating range vs hand situations.

Turbulence said 

I am cbetting this flop 80+% of the time. As the preflop aggressor you only need to bet 40-50% of the pot to take it down. If you are called its an A or a J and when you check the turn if he checks back a) you get a free rvr card b) you might be able to consider betting for thin value against a J on the river.  

Why 80% cbet and why is QQ part of that range? Why 40-50% pot size? What does “taking the pot down” achieve and how often is that the likely outcome?

Foucault

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November 15, 2016 - 1:14 pm
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Thanks kmid! You saved me some typing 🙂

ScotFish
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November 16, 2016 - 5:52 am
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I like Kmid’s post, and think he raises a lot of valuable points, but thought I’d throw my 2 cents in there as well. 

1) As everyone else has said, especially in a live tournament you can raise much bigger pre-flop as limpers hate to fold once they’ve put chips in the pot. 5x is minimum, and you could make an argument to go to 6 or 7 if you were beinge exploitive. 

2&3) The fact that you currently have no reads makes this hand tougher to play, and makes me think similarly to Kmid about how to structure your range. Basically, in my experience people who limp call pre are not ideal candidates to bluff, unless you know they have no piece of the board. Most will not bet when checked to, unless they have a piece of the board, and may not even bet a J, as they tend to over-estimate the chances of someone else having an A. Due to this the lead does not achieve much beyond folding out what you are already beating, and putting money in the pot when you are behind. 

Basically, at a $60 live tourney this is a very reasonable way to play the hand, and apart from raising more pre, you will make EV playing the hand this way at this level. 

Turbulence
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November 16, 2016 - 6:25 am
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Why 80% cbet and why is QQ part of that range? Why 40-50% pot size? What does “taking the pot down” achieve and how often is that the likely outcome?  

As the preflop aggressor raising 2 limper out of position our range should look very strong and includes all big Ax combos. A cbet wins us the pot a large % of the the time on the flop (this is from experience). It also simplifies decision making on future streets if we are called, and will probably allow us to see both turn and river as a limper with a weak Ax is unlikely to bet until the river when checked to. Unless one has picked up on some live tells from our opponents I really dont see a reason to not make a cbet on what is a fairly dry board. 

aka Prophead340 aka Prophead2000 aka Turbulence_1

PocketFives Profile: .....urbulence/

kmid
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November 16, 2016 - 9:02 am
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Turbulence said

As the preflop aggressor raising 2 limper out of position our range should look very strong and includes all big Ax combos. A cbet wins us the pot a large % of the the time on the flop (this is from experience). It also simplifies decision making on future streets if we are called, and will probably allow us to see both turn and river as a limper with a weak Ax is unlikely to bet until the river when checked to. Unless one has picked up on some live tells from our opponents I really dont see a reason to not make a cbet on what is a fairly dry board.   

A cbet will win us the pot some of the time but only when we have the best hand. When this is the case we will often win the pot without cbetting. The cbet will also lose us money when we are not ahead, in this scenario we do not lose money on the flop if we do not cbet.

The decisions will be simpler when we cbet, the reason for this is that we can be relatively certain that we are behind when called/raised. Making an unprofitable decision is not justified because it makes future decisions easier. We should be looking to make the most profitable decisions, regardless of how complex they might make future streets. Seeing both the turn and river is a small advantage when drawing to two outs, we do not hit our set often. There is also no guarantee that this line will allow us to see the turn and river, we get raised on the flop with some frequency and bet into on the turn with some frequency.

If you honestly cannot see a single reason to not cbet here, then you will probably find Andrew Brokos ‘Making Better Continuation Decisions’ video series helpful.

Foucault

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November 16, 2016 - 9:54 am
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Here’s another way to frame the question: even if you think c-betting would be better than check-folding, why would it be better than check-calling? I think we can agree no one is folding a hand better than QQ if Hero bets, nor is Hero ahead of Villain’s calling range (nor is Hero particularly worried about giving free cards when ahead). So, even if we are going to put a bet into the pot on the flop, why do it by betting rather than calling?

To be clear, I’m with kmid that this should be a check-fold, just asking the above to make a point.

smallcat66
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November 16, 2016 - 7:19 pm
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I always thought that if you raised pre flop and an Ace came on the flop, then you should C bet a good % of the time to represent the Ace and take the pot down. If you check back the flop here and the villain doesn’t know that you ever check with an ace , well he is going to try and take the pot away from you with a bet as you have shown weakness. If you call and he bets the turn, what are we doing then?

Is their any merit in Hero betting the flop and shoving the turn as the villain rarely has a very strong Ace and should fold to this pressure.

If you don’t bet the flop when you haven’t an Ace, is there a danger that you won’t get any action when you have an ace and you bet the flop?

Kalith
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February 17, 2017 - 2:00 am
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If you don’t bet the flop when you haven’t an Ace, is there a danger that you won’t get any action when you have an ace and you bet the flop?

I think your overthinking this.  Sounds like your trying to protect your range, or add in some bluffs to protect your raises with aces on this board.  All in all it’s not the most dynamic board in the world, if you have an ace here, villain likely just folds and you win a small pot, the calls are going to be suited broadways with backdoors that have a bunch of equity vs. you and if you’re trying to say this is a good spot to bluff, I’d say we have much better hands to turn into bluffs here than QQ.  Can’t win every pot all the time and trying to do much different here seems like spew when your behind and pulling his bluffs out when your ahead.  What his limp/call pre over 1/2 pot bet flop range looks like is pretty face up and you can lay it down.  But there’s a range you’ll get checked to the turn and can decide to turn your QQ into bluffs at that point or on the river even.  

 

Other thoughts:  Are you betting an AJ6 rainbow board with your big aces? AJ with two pair I’m not gonna throw money in, these guys have pretty capped ranges with limp calling.  If it was heads up vs. a limper I might be suspicious that someone’s turned the clock back to 2002 and limped aces or kings pre, but with your three bet opening up action again pre and this being three way I can’t see AA, KK, AK not trying to get more in the middle preflop than just saying, ah well, lets see a flop three ways and cut my equity down by around 30 % + . . .  

Sorry haven’t posted in forever so I’m sure this is a jumbled mess, just typing through how I see this situation with our three bet range as opposed to just the QQ we have there.

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