Home
(9 votes) 
I have played my last basement bargain tournament at Borgata in AC? They reel you in with 40K in chips in a semi turbo no GTD for $100 but structure and players are horrible. Some of these old farts get lucky when they call my shove and hit a pair or set and its bye bye Irene. Ended up shoving and busting with my last 46k with pocket 4’s 6BB cause i had enough. It sucks when they only pay out 3 places and the floor manager uses the same excuse “we only had 27 players If one more showed it would pay out 5 spots. From now on unless its one of their winter spring opens, i am never throwing my hard earned money down the toilet on these pathetic tournaments especially playing for 5hrs with a table bully staring me down and raising me with every hand while i folded like a punk . It wasnt until i shoved pocket J’s on his ass that he finally folded and backed off . I was told the only way to play back at a bully is not to reraise but become a calling station. Eventually they get tired of pushing people around with air and end up busting . You run into a slew of weirdos at these tables. One asian dude at another table kept laughing out loud Must have been a nervous laugh because there was nothing humorous about what he was laughing at. This other idiot at my table kept bragging about how he hit trifecta for $600 in horse racing while the table was on break. The table bully was not only annoyed by this guy and his trifecta tickets, but his arrogance when he shoved pocket 7’s on him and said “who cares its just money” The bully replied “who cares? Is that what you think of this game? Walked away from the table for a moment and said F— this and they nearly came to blows. Right now i am completely turned off by these primitive players, the crap prize pool and everything else related to these pathetic tournaments. When i first started playing about a year ago i did not care if i cashed . I just wanted to gain experience by playing. Now i realize i am playing with idiots amd you get what you pay for. When i am able to play with a bigger bankroll i will play the $580 – $1500 tournaments and hopefully i will gain incite and become a better player. I wont get any better playing with the caliber of players that frequent these cheap tournaments thats for sure
May 30, 2012
Offline
Sir,
These cheap little games is where you are going to gain experience and become better by seeing MORE & MORE hands. You don’t go directly to $500-$1500 events and expect to win or FT an event. That’s a pipe dream.
It takes time to understand the game at various levels. Kinda like playing cash. You start at 1/2 and move up when you are beating the game. I know this from experience because I went directly into playing $300 – $500 WSOPC events and was the FISH without knowing it.
Bad players are bad players for a reason and you want them in the game. Whether it’s tourneys or cash, when PRO’s or really GOOD players see others are the table to aren’t as skilled as them, they will eat them alive. That’s how you have to look at it.
You just have to figure out who the bad players are and take advantage of them rather then getting mad at the guy who keeps raising you. Make sure you are always getting value for your big or winning hands. Just shoving your JJ into some bully’s face may not have been best for you esp if you flop top set to his bottom set. You could have got a double. Food for thought.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Offline
“ I wont get any better playing with the caliber of players that frequent these cheap tournaments thats for sure”
Strongly disagree. Taking maximum advantage of your opponents’ mistakes is the most important poker skill there is. It’s easiest to learn this when your opponents’ mistakes are glaring. Right now you seem to have the opposite idea, that your opponents’ mistakes are somehow preventing you from winning. You need to focus, not just on how to beat weak players, but how to beat them for the maximum. The same tactics will help you against better (but still non-elite) players – they will simply be less obvious and less profitable because the better players’ mistakes aren’t as glaring. That’s why it’s easier to learn how to play well by beating up on soft competition first.
December 18, 2015
Offline
Coming from me, a person who once thought in your shoes, was once frustrated and tilted to the same degree, coming back into a new poker world of change, evolution and innovation. You grow and you change. Hitting the Circuit and Andrew Brokos is right on the money.
Empty your mind of your mental state and thought process. The mental path that you’re taking is and will become your own undoing of anything you learned or gain thus far. Focus! Learning everything you can here at TPE, listen to the trainers/mentors. Ask questions, get help from the pros on these forums. Take it back to the tables, apply and practice. It literally takes 10’s of thousands, even 100 thousands of hands to get decent and good. Or even 10,000 hours of playing and practicing; while moving up stakes properly as you beat them. But until you can learn to beat the stakes one level at a time, no matter how much money you have or where you start, you won’t get better until you can change your mind and mental state. Focus! Shut off your mind of your negative thoughts and the in-game poker chats.
In poker, it is a long road of self discovery and self reflection of your personality, your psychological make-up, and thought process. You will discover things about yourself that you like and don’t like. There will come a time/phase in your poker life (in your case now) that you will have to make a choice. You can either continue to go at your current rate or you can choose to change to make yourself better. Change and turn your negatives into something constructive and positive. But until you are willing to make that change, you will be mentally blocked from becoming successful no matter what stakes you play and how much money you have. This isn’t just in poker; this is in everything we do in life.
May 30, 2012
Offline
Thank you Andrew and Mykhalzyruskane.
Sir, no one here is trying to tell you anything other then give you GOOD advice. If you don’t want to listen anything I say. Listen to EVERYTHING Andrew says. He’s a well respected PRO and among other things in the poker world. You seem to come off in a “way”. Obviously, others are feeling it kinda as well.
Agian, we are only here to help and this forum is NOTHING like 2+2. You might as well stay away from Pocket5’s as well.
glgl Sir at Borgata
lets cut the crap ok? You make this game seem as though you have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. I listen to some of this nonsense such as ” The game is changing and to get better you need to study more get coaching , study books , get advice from pros blah blah. Bottom line this game is 90 percent luck 10 percent skill. The best solution wait for medium to premium hand if you dont connect on the flop or have the nuts on the flop . give it up and stop driving yourself nuts whether you should call with air or one pair . The supposed pros of the game which i feel is totally over rated and all hype have lost major tournaments to fish or donks that just happen to get lucky I rest my case
TPE Management
April 6, 2010
Offline
You do not have to be a rocket scientist, but to be a long term winner you definitely have to work hard. And you have to have a pretty tough mental game to deal with the bad beats, etc.
When you get AA you are 80% vs a smaller pair. If you are playing 40 MTTs on a Sunday you are going to get that situation ALOT. and you are going to lose it ~20% of the time. That is a lot of losing with AA. And it is frustrating as hell. I promise you I have wanted to quit many, many times.
Wow that is interesting Mr Killingbird. You mean you actually wanted to quit the game of poker altogether? If so, you are one of the more real people in this sport as opposed to others who could care less how much money they blow because they decided their entire life is devoted to playing poker . So it shall be written so it shall be done
February 5, 2015
Offline
Hello Legend,
I feel your pain. I feel like a bit of an interloper here because I have never played live, but I am interested in some of the topics you bring up. I too feel like whenever I play vs. fish I seem to get the worst of it more often than I should. I would not be surprised if there is not a valid reason for this phenomenon. In fact I could hazard a guess, but I’m interested in a pro’s perspective.
FWIW I’d imagine you are gaining valuable experience playing those tourneys, whether you realise it or not. I am yet to even scratch the surface of live poker. I envy your experience on that side of things.
Whilst one does not need to be a “rocket scientist” to play winning poker, one does need to be(come) within the top 5-10% of players. At least online. Not too sure about live, but I can’t imagine there is a massive discrepancy…probably a little. I agree with your contention that in the short term – I stress short term – NLHE and poker is mostly about luck. In my (non-professional) opinion I would say that 90% is a little high, but I would imagine that minute to minute, hour to hour, even day to day the skill element amounts to perhaps 20%.
Nevertheless, over weeks, months, years…hundreds of thousands of hands, a million hands, the element of luck dissipates almost entirely. Long term this is a game of skill. And only a very small % of players are able, long term, to come out on top. I personally believe that one need to be extremely intelligent to succeed at poker long term. Maybe even “rocket scientist” intelligent. And hugely dedicated. Or naturally talented, or both.
Personally, and I cannot imagine this is variance as it has occurred so often, I have traditionally salivated at the holiday season, for instance, and other times when I know my games are going to be full of clueless fish. During regular periods when I am playing games which are 60-75% reg infested I turn out a small +ROI in 180 man turbo sng’s on Stars (whilst losing my profit thus far in MTTs). However almost every time when I play these fishy sessions I end up getting annihilated by the fish.
I am much more +ev when playing vs regs.
My guess is something along these lines: that Nash shoving ranges, for instance, are only applicable when matched by appropriate calling ranges. If villain calls too wide, then both hero and villain suffer…the benefit is to the rest of the field; and other such phenomena. Nevertheless, the fact remains: I always hear “those in the know” say that if you cannot beat the fish at the lower limits then you have no hope vs. better opponents. I am not so sure this is true.
I would just be curious to hear the thoughts of any pro here. Thanks.
I have only been playing the live circuit since last June on a regular basis meaning once a week which is like the equivalent of playing 3 or 4 x a week online. Once a week at casino is good batting practice if you get my drift. I gave up poker in 1980 before NL hold em took center stage. They played stud back then and when i sat at the table in Vegas i was greeted by a bunch of cigar smoking cowboys who resembled Amarillo Slim & Dolly telling me ” Hey son arent you a bit young to be playing with us old folks”? When AC came into existence in late 70’s early 80;s Black Jack and Craps were the only game in town. I think the first poker room was built at Resorts in 1995 but i could be mistaken. Very few played poker back then. If you wanted to play poker you played in home games with friends or hustled the underground circuit . . I credit anyone that is able to transition their game by playing both online and live . In my opinion those kind of poker players are the nova elite in my book . I have very little online experience . Occasionally i play a few $5 to $10 turbo tournaments but trying to adjust from 2500 to 5k in chips online as opposed to 20 to 30k in chips live, takes a lot of getting used to. I notice that everyone uses HUDS online so in effect once they got your number your as good as dead meat especially if you are a novice or newbie. They will shove on you faster than you can say shove , or maybe its because i havent played with the big boys in bigger buys with better structures . I will assume that playing a $100 tournament live is the equiv of playing a $10 tournament online . Bad players bad structures etc etc. When i first started playing live like the newbie i was, i asked around the table if anyone plays online. They looked at me as though i was nuts and received maybe one response ” I dont get into that shit” Although i have only played live for a relatively short period of time, i notice there is still and edge in this game similar to pre black friday scenario. Loads and loads of fish register for the smaller buy in’s and the regs that play those $200 to $300 tournaments usually buy into the winter spring summer and fall series where the structure is a hell of a lot better . Most of these regs will never move up to $1100 – $3500 series events because the pros outweigh the fish in those events by a wide margin. If the regs who normally dominate those cheaper buy in events were to take a step up in class they would more than likely get crushed in skill and more importantly in ego. They feel comfortable playing leader of the fish and getting beaten down by a more experienced bully would shatter that ego altogether . Its not worth taking the risk as far as they are concerned. Whether its due to pure luck running good or just variance , i am pleased with my progress cashing 6 times while 4 of the 6 were series events. Maybe sometimes its good for the ego to pat yourself on the back regardless of whether or not its actually false hope or not. I try to vision myself at the WSOP main event when i make a final table . We are allowed to dream now cant we? Bottom line is that for me to really improve at the game and make real $$$ i will have to study more play with a bigger bankroll and compete with better players and that means investing in bigger buy in somewhere down the line. As for now i have to play within my bankroll limits . Honestly when i read about the greats of the game busting on Day 1 or even sooner in a big tournament i realize that they are human like everyone else and it doesnt matter how much skill you posses for if you don;t get the cards you can’t do jack. I have also come to realize that you will lose a hell of alot more than you will win 80 % vs 20 % perhaps?
January 10, 2013
Offline
Very interesting in the online v live debate, here is my view, being from the UK, poker is still mainly a live game over here, we have plenty of options for a game, be it live or online.
I am a regular live casino player mostly £30 double chance tornys comes to £66 that is $100, and I will play the higher £200 games when there is a festival near by, now at the smaller game of £30 dc, I am a winning player, the £200 game has a better class of player and I fall well short,
When it comes to online poker my view is the players are much better and harder to beat, I have played more or less from the start of the online poker boom, at first I was a winner, then a break even, and the last 3/4 years, a losing player, after losing for the last few years online I made the decision to either pack online in altogether, or start a fresh at the lower stakes and get some up to date knowledge of the game, and now I am a regular on TPE,
What turned my game around was my HUD, after watching one of the TPE vids on HUDS, I realised how bad my numbers were, and how much cash I was throwing away, now I feel my HUD is in order with what I feel to be healthy numbers for decent tornys with good structures, I am now at 23/17/ 8, a million miles away from a loose passive fish, where before I would hardly use my HUD, now I could not play without it,
now I seem to of levelled off with these good solid numbers, my game is much much better, I use flopzilla and range players, and although I am playing small stakes I am now back and ahead of the game, and really enjoying online once again.
A couple of months back I won a decent torny online it was for 1,650 euros, now I thought I played my best poker ever to win this game, I was buzzing not only about the money, but even more so about my new style of winning poker, but when I replayed the game on HM2 I could not believe I was still making mistakes, and plenty of them, at least now I know where I am going wrong in games, and they can be put right, unlike the days of playing like a headless chicken lol
gl
May 30, 2012
Offline
really no need to say anything else after what KB said and the response Wheeeeeeeee 
90% luck 10% skill. smh
January 22, 2016
Offline
Were you serious when you said 90% luck 10% skill because if so i agree
May 30, 2012
Offline
No, I was being extremely sarcastic. hence me SMH (shaking my head). if that’s how you feel, maybe playing poker isn’t you game. Try bowling or something.
December 18, 2015
Offline
What KB said is right, It takes hours, days, weeks, years for some to get as good as these pros have. It’s a lot of dedicated hard work and study like anything else. The mental game is tough, just like it is in trading. You have to train yourself to turn off that emotion chip, live and learn and come back for more punishment to survive through. There’s no quitting if poker is your passion, you just keep playing, learning and get better. Being part of a community such as TPE helps tremendously. The same kind of communities exist in what I do, thus increasing your accuracy, profits, and skill level.
I prefer to go by the 80/20 life rule. I believe poker is 80% skill and 20% luck.
I concur with others have already said to help you. But when all is said and done, poker may not be for you long term or professionally if that was your goal. If you can’t beat the mental/psychological game to poker (or anything in life), you should seek something. Otherwise, change your mindset, suck it up, learn and grow!
Poker isn’t about beating the game, it’s about beating yourself, your failures, and earn success.
January 22, 2016
Offline
This forum is starting to sound alot like 2 plus 2 . Sarcastic annoying opinions especially from someone that just joined Dec 15. You seem to make yourself out as some kind of expert on peoples thought process or take it personal when i am actually just voicing an opinion. I never said i planned on quitting . You seem to be the one putting words in my mouth . I should find another hobby I should take up bowling. You come off as a real jerk with your insensitive remarks. I suggest you take some courses in forum communication skills because you are certainly not communicating with me in a positive light
May 30, 2012
Offline
I’m done …….. lol. Glgl in the future sir. I’ll let others chime in with your posts. This is def NOT 2+2 in any way. They all believe they are experts. we are trying to give you helping advice. You coming off to some of us like watching poker TV and doing all the things those STARS do is the way to go.
You’re an older gentleman and seem not to understand the NEW way to play compared to some of the players you have seen on TV or you are just stuck in your old playing ways.
I simply say…. You can’t be great after watching a few vids unless your some future Hall of Famer.
Just take what others say…… learn and go win some tourneys.
December 18, 2015
Offline
smh, I am saying no more lol.
Hitting The Circuit, fist bump – touche sir! 🙂
February 5, 2015
Offline
Hold on…now I am totally confused.
Legend44 started the thread and yet people are responding to Legend491, who also sounds a lot like Legend44. Am I going mad?
Fwiw I don’t think you necessarily have mutually exclusive positions. To say NLHE is 90% luck in the short term, is in the ballpark imo, although as I said I feel its a little high as an estimate. In the long term, NLHE is 99.999% skill.
I understand how gamblers can get their kicks playing poker, for sure. Short term, it sure can feel like gambling. Heaters can run for weeks on end, as can downswings, or even longer. But really, NLHE, in the long term, has almost absolutely nothing to do with gambling.
This is a game of mathematics and probability. All we can do as players is put ourselves in positions of advantage, and make the correct decisions based on the odds and probabilities. A fish who goes on a heater even though he is getting it in bad is still making incorrect decisions; he is just enjoying some good fortune. However, if he continues to play thus, in time he will lose – guaranteed. Similarly, a good player who makes the correct decisions within the game may be punished for a while by a run of bad luck, but in time he will win – again guaranteed.
Similarities are often drawn between the worlds of trading and poker. Apparently they involve a similar skill set. When I sit down for a poker session I actually see myself as a trader. I trade in probabilities all day long, in a market where I give odds and take odds with other players. It is a market I know well, and the more one knows about the probabilities involved therein compared to the other players, the greater advantage one will have in the long run.
February 20, 2015
Offline
Video poker works the same way. In fact, VP’s version of GTO is always the right answer because there’s no human factor.
December 30, 2015
Offline
I think this entire thread comes down to how much people truly understand variance. Earning a stable ROI in an environment of massive variance is very difficult to comprehend at times, let alone trust in. Moments just hurt too much at times to stay clear-headed.
I like to step away from poker for a better example. Insurance. If you truly could handle the variance life brings you wouldn’t buy insurance. It is a loosing game, BUT we’d all rather have someone with deep pockets cover our variance for a small commission than worry about having a ton of cash on hand for any given emergency or lawsuit, risking going broke.
I personally understand the original post quite well. I think it reads like “entitlement tilt”. Being introduced to this concept by The Mental Game of Poker was a big one for me. I HATE getting beaten by Q7s after big preflop action should have eliminated the hand from V range. I just have to repeat “this is what I want to see. It is good for me. Call my KK all day with that please.” (…that almost helps sometimes too 
).
Anyway, I think it is best to redirect all that painful thinking toward the challenge of finding the best counter-strategy. This is where the skill comes in.
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
63 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
adrianvaida2525
Anteeater
Laggro
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12008
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1
