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December 2, 2013
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hey guys first time i ever posted a hand here. i think 1-2 nl cash is hell and i dont even consider it poker.
im on the button with q9spades. after 4 limpers i decide to limp also.
flop 2s 3s 4h
gets checked to guy to my right and bets 5. i call and folds around.
turn is 9h
once again he bets 5$ i make it 15 and he makes it 40$.
right here i figured he had a set since he was a typical tight older guy who only bets with the nuts. i wanted to jam but decided to flat. i brick the river and he bets 50. i pay him off and he shows pocket kk.
what is the correct play and why the hell would anyone limp in late position with kk. any thoughts would be greatly apreciated.
my hand q9
winning hand kk
2s 3s 4h 9h Jc
would you consider just saving a bankroll and moving up to 2-5 so i dont have to deal with these fish.
TPE Management
April 6, 2010
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im a cash fish, but i think i would play this hand exactly as you did. You can def make moey at 1/2 (assuming the rake is not terrible, so I would not heistate to grind that. You will find much better players at 2/5 from my experience so might as well play with the fish.
November 22, 2013
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Imo playing at midstakes tournaments can really screw you up if you try to play 1-2. 1-2 can be an absolute goldmine if you know how to play 1-2, but playing any other form of poker doesn’t prepare you to play 1-2. 1-2 is a completely different animal. Basically in 1-2, there is no fold equity because while some opponents will fold, at least 1 opponent will call at all times. If in midstakes tournament poker maybe 10% of hands go to showdown, 90% of hands in 1-2 go to showdown. So you pretty much have to nut peddle. Not that you need to be nitty, because you do have the implied odds to see a lot of flops, but generally I never raise in 1-2 unless I’ve already gotten there. In this specific hand I would have just called the turn. While good players can get away from KK, most 1-2 fish cannot. So he probably would have called you had you gotten there on the river. Even if you did something as lol obvious as calling turn and jamming river if you got there, he would probably call. You also have to keep in mind that because so many people see flops in 1-2 (generally 5+ players stay in for the flop in each hand) the likelihood of someone having something goes up drastically. The chances of one of your opponents having two pair or better is high. However, most of your opponents will also stack off with any decent pair. So you’re almost forced into a situation where you don’t want to invest a lot of money unless you have two pair, but if you ever do get two pair or better, your opponents will stack off to you. Here, a pair of 9’s just doesn’t figure to be the best hand, given that 5 people saw the flop. I figure at least one of your opponents to show up with 5-6 or a set a lot here. A horribly played overpair is also in the realm of possibility, maybe your opponent thought he was being tricky.
P.S. The worst thing you can do in 1-2 is be the sort of player who only plays high cards, but stacks off with a single pair. If anything you should be the opposite, see a lot of flops with a wide range, but really only commit with two pair or better. That advice really isn't that relevant to this hand though. I was a very successful 1-2 grinder for about 2 yrs before I played more tournaments and moved up in stakes.
December 2, 2013
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Thanks for the post guys. I think i have to go back to the basics with 1\2 .. Since I have been playing 2-5 i can’t assume 1\2 will play the same. Your right, totally to different games. The guy limping late position preflop with kk is example of that. I used to Crush that game and I guess lost track of how non poker it is. Money is money I guess and just have adjust. Thank you
November 22, 2013
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jsp074 said:
Thanks for the post guys. I think i have to go back to the basics with 1\2 .. Since I have been playing 2-5 i can't assume 1\2 will play the same. Your right, totally to different games. The guy limping late position preflop with kk is example of that. I used to Crush that game and I guess lost track of how non poker it is. Money is money I guess and just have adjust. Thank you
Sorry, I’ll add one more thing: I have not had good results when I’m trying to play 1-2 and tournaments in the same time period. The games are too distinct and the play styles that are successful in each are too different. I will go through phases where I play 1-2 and be successful. I will go through phases where I only play tournaments and will be successful. I will go through phases where sometimes I play 1-2 and sometimes play tournaments and will NOT be successful.
For example, I’ve found a LAG style to often work in tournaments, particularly at specific tables. However, LAG is absolute suicide at 1-2. There are so many call stations that you almost never have fold equity. Bluffing at 1-2 is often tantamount to lighting $10 bills on fire. I’ve found an ABC TAG approach to work at 1-2, particularly against inept opponents. However, if you try to play ABC TAG against a tournament reg, you will get crushed because the blinds go up too quickly to play tight, and ABC play is highly exploitable. The only style I’ve found that works in both is a version of “small-ball” but for completely different reasons. 1-2 players are so poor post-flop that you generally have the implied odds to play a wide range of hands. If you can see the flop cheaply, you should generally do so. Playing small-ball in tournaments can be profitable as widening your range makes you less exploitable, particularly if you can do it cheaply. It also allows you to steal a lot of small pots, as appropriate.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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WizardZur said:
Imo playing at midstakes tournaments can really screw you up if you try to play 1-2. 1-2 can be an absolute goldmine if you know how to play 1-2, but playing any other form of poker doesn't prepare you to play 1-2. 1-2 is a completely different animal. Basically in 1-2, there is no fold equity because while some opponents will fold, at least 1 opponent will call at all times. If in midstakes tournament poker maybe 10% of hands go to showdown, 90% of hands in 1-2 go to showdown. So you pretty much have to nut peddle. Not that you need to be nitty, because you do have the implied odds to see a lot of flops, but generally I never raise in 1-2 unless I've already gotten there. In this specific hand I would have just called the turn. While good players can get away from KK, most 1-2 fish cannot. So he probably would have called you had you gotten there on the river. Even if you did something as lol obvious as calling turn and jamming river if you got there, he would probably call. You also have to keep in mind that because so many people see flops in 1-2 (generally 5+ players stay in for the flop in each hand) the likelihood of someone having something goes up drastically. The chances of one of your opponents having two pair or better is high. However, most of your opponents will also stack off with any decent pair. So you're almost forced into a situation where you don't want to invest a lot of money unless you have two pair, but if you ever do get two pair or better, your opponents will stack off to you. Here, a pair of 9's just doesn't figure to be the best hand, given that 5 people saw the flop. I figure at least one of your opponents to show up with 5-6 or a set a lot here. A horribly played overpair is also in the realm of possibility, maybe your opponent thought he was being tricky.
P.S. The worst thing you can do in 1-2 is be the sort of player who only plays high cards, but stacks off with a single pair. If anything you should be the opposite, see a lot of flops with a wide range, but really only commit with two pair or better. That advice really isn't that relevant to this hand though. I was a very successful 1-2 grinder for about 2 yrs before I played more tournaments and moved up in stakes.
LOL the last time I played 1-3 I got not one but two players to fold an Ace on an A999x board. Ask Carlos, he was one of them! If you think about it there's really a lot of tension between what you say about no fold equity and what you say about never stacking off without two-pair. It isn't that easy to make two-pair, so if you can't profitably get your money in with less, then you ought to be able to bluff profitably. Despite how it may seem, people won't have two-pair all that often, so it has to be correct either to bluff a lot or to get a lot of value from less than two-pair.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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OP,
Especially given your read I don't see a lot of reason to raise the turn. If you really thought he had a set, you should probably fold to his 3-bet and certainly fold to the river bet. Instead of getting frustrated about the way he chose to play, focus on how to improve your own decisions. If it's actually a mistake for him to play KK this way, then you should be able to exploit it. Which you did, by seeing a flop (and turn) cheaply with a draw. And f him playing this way is causing you to make mistakes, then maybe his decision to limp wasn't so bad after all…
November 22, 2013
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The tension that you speak of exists because in 1-2 there are generally two types of players: those who are loose-passive and those who are nits. There arent many good, aggressive players. The Loose-Passive fish are never folding and the NITS are looking for reasons NOT to fold. The call stations will call with bottom pair for 3 streets of value, while against the NITS you generally do have to have two pair or better if they are betting into you. The NITS also tend to be blown off hands by large absolute bets, paying no attention to the size of the pot. For example, if you are in a hand against a NIT and the flop is A
2
5, and you float him he will almost certainly fold A
K
if the turn comes 6 and you bet a large sum. Even if the pot is say $50, you may get him to fold to a $40 bet because it looks scary. He will very likely fold with a disgusted look on his face, “knowing” that you have a flush. On the other side of the spectrum there are loose passive players who will call multiple streets of value with bottom pair. So you have to know who you are playing against, that is the biggest skill in 1-2. You have to know who you are playing against and exploit their holes. There isn’'t really a need to be balanced or unexploitable yourself, because your opponents are so easily exploitable, and not always awake. Call stations are calling off with any number of hands but NITS are only calling off with two pair or better. So you have to know who you are playing against. It is also the case that if a call station has shown no resistance then suddenly starts betting aggressively you have to believe he has two pair or better.
For example,
I was playing 1-2 recently and was dealt AA on the button. Someone raised to $10 and a call station called. I was pretty sure that if I 3 bet they would both call with a wide range so long as the bet wasn't large so I 3 bet to $25 and they both called. The flop is 1065. I could slow play but I also know they will both call if they have any part of the flop. I wanted to bet an amount they would call if they had even a 5 or 6 so I bet $30 and got one caller (the call station). The turn is 2, completing the rainbow but no draws. I am almost certain he has a 10, probably J10s because people like to call with those suited connectors. I know that whatever I bet he will likely call because he cannot lay down top pair. However, knowing this I would rather bet a small amount. Why? Because whether he gets there on the river or not I'm pretty sure I can take his stack. Hence, I would rather get it in on a safe river than on the turn. So I bet $30 again and he called. River is 10 and he checks to me. 
I instantly check back and of course he shows J10.
Why I am sharing this hand? It's a good example of what goes on in 1-2. Most tournament regulars believe that when the board pairs, that is a safe board. But in 1-2 my experience is that certain players will call all the way down with any pair so if the board pairs and you don't a stronger hand than a single pair you had better be careful. Likewise, when a call station or a NIT starts betting you have to really question why. If you're not holding the nuts you have to really question why a NIT would be betting into you and its probably because he has the nuts.
In the OP, when a player who seems to be NITTY 3 bets you on the turn, you absolutely have to know that you are crushed. Paying off a NIT there is really bad.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Nice post, Zur. I especially like your first paragraph, which contains a lot of the nuance that was missing from your earlier statements. There are a lot of insights in there that it took me a while to figure out. FWIW much of the dynamic you describe still exists in higher stakes live games.
I'm not so sure about the example you posted, though. You're talking about loose these guys are but then you make such a small raise when you have the nuts. Likewise on the flop, I agree that you should aim to get action from any pair, but $30 into $75 seems exceedingly small. You really think these guys are going to check-fold 76 if you bet $45?
I kind of get what you're saying about wanting to wait until the river to get the money in, but I think you're exaggerating the effect. Aren't there at least some rivers where you don't get paid off? At the very least an Ace, which is just as likely as a T if your opponent has the hand you think he has, is probably a bad card for you. And I don't see how you can check behind any river but a T. Even if it's a J, seems to me you miss a lot of value from T9, T8, QT, KT, AT if you just check behind for fear of JT. If you're confident you can get paid bigger by a T on the turn, which I'm sure you could, I'd rather take the sure bet than wait for the river.
November 22, 2013
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Yeah I didn't show the hand to illustrate that I played it well per se. It was more to point out that when a call station is calling you down and the board pairs, you have to question whether a single pair is best. Had he donked into me river, I would have thought about laying it down, I was that certain of my read. I'm sure there are players who would advocate betting that river, because it is unlikely that he has a 10. I am also certain that almost no one would fold river to a single bet. But those are precisely the sort of hands you have to lay down in 1-2.
It's game flow. I'm sure you understand that Foucault, but I'm not sure that everyone does. You just have to “feel” it. When things are cruising without resistance, then suddenly you experience resistance, you have to question why all of a sudden there is resistance. 1-2 players are almost never bluffing in the example of the OP. When a NIT reraises you on the turn you absolutely have to realize that a pair of 9's is never good there. Maybe you have the implied odds to call, but I don’t think so. On the river when he bets $50, you have to realize that 1-2 players are more concerned with the absolute size of a bet rather than the size in relation to the pot. 1-2 NITS are never betting $50 river with less than KK or AA, or a set.
If your perception of your opponent is accurate then I would have called 5 on turn and folded river.
Thats not results oriented thinking either. I can recall numerous hands where I had TPTK against NITS in live cash games, laid the hand down, and been absolutely correct. When a NIT gives you action, he can beat TPTK more often than not. One of the worst mistakes you can make in live cash is giving a NIT action, the only bigger mistake is trying to bluff a call station.
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