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July 24, 2018
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From a thread on 2+2. The setup is 2 limpers, to a ‘very competent’ player, who raises to 4.25BB. Folds to hero in BB who has 33BB.
This brings us to the question in the title. What should our 3 bet shove range look like? My thoughts are:
1. I do not have a 3 bet size that is less than AI. I guess we could make it something like 13.5BB, but I prefer to shove my 3 bet range.
2. I do think we can be polarized here.
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December 6, 2012
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I don’t think it makes all that much sense to talk about “polarized” before the flop, because there aren’t extremely strong or extremely weak hands the way there are on the turn or river. Barring some extreme exploit, any hand you shove here needs decent equity when called. You can’t be jamming Q5o. There may be a a few hands like T9s or something that have decent hold-and-cold equity that play better as calls, but that has more to do with how their equity is distributed across flops than how much equity they have. With hands that are highly dependent on the flop, it may be better to pay a small price to see how good or bad the flop is for you before deciding to commit your stack. But these aren’t “bluff catchers” in the same what that hands in your turn checking range typically are.
July 24, 2018
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I didn’t mean extremely weak hands, more like AWs or the like. Not great to call with, but decent equity when called. Or, should we be just raising big Aces/Pairs, etc?
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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That’s my point though, a hand like A5s is actually quite strong. Your shoving range isn’t strictly linear in that you may shove some hands that are less strong than some of your calling hands, but you’re still shoving only reasonably strong hands.
July 24, 2018
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Ok, we were saying similar things in a different manner. Post flop there are hands that have extremely poor equity, so your ‘poles’ are wide.
Preflop, obviously all hands have some equity, and they are mostly closer together.
My main question was ‘do you have hands in between that are calls’, and hands that are pure value shoves, and semi bluff shoves.
I consider the AWs stuff to be a good semi bluff shove; we have modest equity vs calling ranges and sufficient FE to make them profitable. Of course, our biggest hands are pure value; we hope to get called. There are hands that are ‘in between’, where we are good enough to call, but do not play well as shoves.
That was what I was trying to get to..
September 29, 2012
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I understand what Andrew means, but I also understand the meaning in your question, even if not worded in a specifically correct way.
You can have 2 possibilities here: 1) Shove the strongest hands in your range, call the middle portion of your range and shove the best hands that cannot profitably call; or 2) Shove or fold here with no calling range.
(There are more than these 2 options here as exploitative adjustments, but if we are discussing purely mathematically balanced ranges, this is how I view it.) (Also, I’m sure solvers will spit out more complicated split ranges but they are hard for humans to develop on the spot without lots of study time with solvers.)
The answer really lies in whether you can have a call range here. And that does depend on the 2 limpers, since you are not closing the action. Are they straight forward limpers, where they would have already raised their strongest hands and will either only call or fold. Or are they tricky limpers and will back-raise if you call. In today’s game, many of the loose limpers tend to be more of the straight forward kind of limper. And if that is the case, I think you can have a middle calling range. Which would mean shoving the top of your range and then the best hands that cannot profitably call here to balance the shoving range.
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