View Plans & Pricing

If you are signed in and are seeing this message, please be sure you have selected a user name in My Profile. The forum requires it.
A A A
Search

— Forum Scope —




— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 Topic Rating: 0 (0 votes) 
sp_TopicIcon
Roughed up in Vegas
tazzjazz
Midstakes Master
Members
Forum Posts: 109
Member Since:
August 4, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
1
August 26, 2014 - 11:12 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I played a hand a few months ago during my first trip to Vegas in a 5/10 cash game at the Venetian that I think is interesting, or at the very least eye-opening for me as I have spent 10+ hours thinking about this one. Would love your input.

 

I went to Vegas with, in retrospect, a somewhat gambly, nonprofessional state of mind. I had received my check for 19K from the “Chipgate” resolution and immediately booked a 10 day trip for the WSOP for which I budgeted $10,000. I am a tournament guy but consciously wanted to play some 5/10 this trip to challenge myself in a tough game and see if I could approach poker in terms of a good hourly wage. I read Ed Miller’s 1% the week before my trip and thought I was well prepared for the sort of villains I would be facing (ones approaching the game from a betting frequency perspective).

 

I showed a profit for the first half of my trip, having a few good cash sessions and cashing in 2 of 5 tourneys including the Millionaire Maker. After busting the millionaire maker I went to the Venetian to play cash, it was a Sunday night. I believe I can usually tell how people play just by looking at their faces and when I sat down I immediately felt this might be the toughest game I ever played in. The players all seem to know one another, all pros in my estimation. I bought in for $600 at 5/10 and doubled up with KK right away. Over the next 3 hours I had my stack up to $8400. I was getting great cards but also making some moves and showing myself to be competent. A guy bet $800 on the river into a pot of $500 on a board of AK552 and I called with 77 and won. I also called down a guy with Q high and won a small pot. I was doing well with my playing style which is to try to look like a conventionally exploitable nit who rarely 3 bets and flats 3 bets OOP but then just stick around in a hand and make big bets on turns or rivers (where often most TAG players have abandoned ship).  I know, about an hour into this session, there was a hand that had all the pros at the table watching me very closely where I floated a flop with a junk hand and then check raised my opponent’s turn barrel and made the guy tank fold…I think they were all highly suspicious of this bet and at this point I think they all had me pegged as someone who is willing to put a lot of $ in the middle to take down a pot. The players were adjusting to my play by increasing their bet sizing. They saw I was calling every 3bet and most c bets. I opened a pot for $40 and a guy three bet me to $200 and I mucked AJoff. One guy c bet 1.5x of pot and I folded. I contemplated leaving but decided I would stay but play tighter and try not to give too much away.

 

Difficult of course to know precisely how I was viewed by the table but they would be certainly be crushed if I had left the game at this point. I think they saw me not necessarily as a fish on a heater but as a recreational player who is capable of making big mistakes and giving it all back. On my left is a portly 60 year old Mediterranean guy who is giving me hell and complaining about how lucky I am and mocking me and the rest of the table wants him to pipe down. One pro begins asking me about hands from the millionaire maker and being very social and I get the sense he is the liason to make sure I am having a good time at the table. There is one older guy who is an obvious recreational player who only has played 10% of hands but the rest are pros and frankly it occurs to me at this point that there was a 7 versus 1 feel to the table…I’m the one they are here to win money off. When I build my big stack several of them reach into their cash bags and add a few more thousand to their stacks. The Villain of the hand I want to share was this young Asian kid sitting to my direct right. I have not seen him play any big pots but he is playing what I consider to be the essential pro style…3betting in position and then barreling away until his opponent folds.  After it became obvious that I was tightening up the Asian kid tells me “you know you haven’t played a hand in an hour” and the rest of the players watch this and are obviously frustrated I stopped giving action. Naturally, I oblige them and decide to play a big pot a few minutes later…

 

Sorry, probably way too much information so here’s the hand…I start this hand with just under 8K and the villain has over 5K. The passive amateur player raises from early position to $30 and the villain in the cutoff makes it $120, I have 9h10h on the button and I four bet to $275. I have not been 3 or 4betting much and I thought this was a good time to steal a pot. I thought my bet sizing might be a little smallish and look like I had a monster hand and was trying to induce a reraise. The amateur sighs and folds and the Villain quickly throws in a call. There is $595 in the pot and the flop is Jh7h3c. I have a flush draw and a gut shot. The villain checks and I bet $275. My plan is to reraise him if he check raises me here. Villain quickly throws in a call. Quite honestly I don’t really pause here to put him on a range, but I certainly know he is capable of floating with air and I am certain that I am not done fighting for this pot.

 

The pot is now $1145 and the turn is the 6d. Villain quickly checks and I think for a few seconds before checking behind. I decide I don’t care what the river is, if he leads out I will be raising him(well, I would just call if 10 or 9 hits).The river is the As. The final board is J736A with no flush, 45 is the nuts. I have ten high. All the action on the river takes a total of about 4 seconds: the villain bets $600, I say “$1400” and begin counting out my chips, the villain says “$2700” and throws two fistfuls of black chips in the middle while providing a falling bomb sound effect, I hurl my cards in the muck and the villain show 2-8off and pulls in the pot. WTF! Absolutely owned.

tazzjazz
Midstakes Master
Members
Forum Posts: 109
Member Since:
August 4, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
2
August 26, 2014 - 11:25 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

probably would have to dissect the whole history of the session to decipher how he saw this opportunity. i think my checking back the turn was probably a sign to him that i had no hand. with draws on the board i would not have stopped betting AA KK QQ or a set. My river raise he saw through as well…if I had AK and hit my ace I would never raise. I think a few minutes earlier I had failed to value bet top two pair when a flush hit. Basically my river aggression is even more polarized than most players. I might have also given timing tells by the quick turn check and insta raise on the river. I dunno. Very little table talk after this one…naturally I'd be very curious if villain was trying to push me off an ace, I suspect he just knew I had nothing and was committed to putting the last bet in on the river. 

tazzjazz
Midstakes Master
Members
Forum Posts: 109
Member Since:
August 4, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
3
August 26, 2014 - 11:37 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print sp_EditHistory
0

terrible aftermath to this hand from my perspective, a perfect storm of misery. an orbit later i got in a blind vs blind battle with the villain who had just owned me. i lost a nearly 8K pot when Q8<A8 on AQ882 board. Too painful to discuss this hand…didnt even bother to range the villain when he massively overbet the pot on the river. after this hand I had to go the bathroom to gather myself and, naturally, the villain who had mocked me an hour ago for sitting on my $ was racking his $12,000 and calling it a night. Anyway, i learned some good lessons about game selection and bankroll management on this trip and told myself I would not play 5/10 until I had this hand figured out

Foucault

TPE Pro
Members
Forum Posts: 2067
Member Since:
December 6, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
4
August 28, 2014 - 2:04 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Sounds like you were on “positive tilt” here. You were probably playing well but also running well and getting away more than you “should” have been able to because people were underestimating you. Then, at the same time that they were catching on to some of the more exploitable things you were doing, you started going to an even more exploitable extreme. You mentioned Miller's book but it sounds like even before this big hand went down you weren't really trying to make the balance/frequency-based decisions he talks about. Nothing else to do at this point but consider it an expensive lesson in what happens when you try to play exploitively but don't stay ahead in the adjust/re-adjust game.

tazzjazz
Midstakes Master
Members
Forum Posts: 109
Member Since:
August 4, 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
5
August 28, 2014 - 5:01 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

thx Andrew.

5kyrimmer
Guppy
Members
Forum Posts: 5
Member Since:
July 29, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
6
August 28, 2014 - 7:19 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

Well that was a facinating read!! your head must have been spinning after that hand, thanks for shareing 🙂

bennymacca
Adelaide Australia
Road Gambling with Doyle
Members
Forum Posts: 2616
Member Since:
October 6, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
7
August 29, 2014 - 4:51 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

yep awesome read. not sure i have anything to add, but i enjoyed the story because i feel i would be the same in a 5/10 game haha.

JD
Grinding Micros
Members
Forum Posts: 70
Member Since:
January 16, 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
8
September 5, 2014 - 11:14 pm
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I think the turn would have been a sick spot to 2x pot it with your sets+ and good draws, especially with the given dynamics.  When he snap calls it kinda caps his range.  If he had 2p+ he would consider raising for a second.  And would he really continue with a single pair?  Even if he had the nuts he has to consider it with the flush draw out there (unless he has exactly 4h5h).  I don't know if I could ever do it in a $5/$10 with my bankroll, but I like it in theory.

 

This spot reminds me of a PokerSnowie blog post …..Ap2r_ldWFU

Foucault

TPE Pro
Members
Forum Posts: 2067
Member Since:
December 6, 2012
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline
9
September 6, 2014 - 8:34 am
sp_Permalink sp_Print
0

I agree about betting the turn but I don't know that you need to 2x pot it. The point of the post you linked is that you should me MORE polarized the bigger you bet. That would imply that you'd be better off 2x potting if your betting range were nut hands and bluffs rather than if you are betting a bunch of draws/made hands of varying strengths, as should be the case here I think.

Forum Timezone: America/New_York

Most Users Ever Online: 2780

Currently Online:
29 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

bennymacca: 2616

Foucault: 2067

folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133

praetor: 1033

theginger45: 924

P-aire 146: 832

Turbulence: 768

The Riceman: 731

duggs: 591

florianm1: 588

Newest Members:

CSerpent

KJ

Tillery999

sdmathis89

ne0x00

adrianvaida2525

Forum Stats:

Groups: 4

Forums: 24

Topics: 12705

Posts: 75003

 

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 1063

Members: 12010

Moderators: 2

Admins: 5

Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos

Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1