September 29, 2014
Hi Y’all- need some advice here:
Live NLHE 1/3 7 handed. Hero/Me (UTG) stack $750. Villain (MP) stack $400. Villain is late 20’s flat cap hoody etc., only been at table for 1/2 hr so not much to read yet.
I raise to 12 UTG w KK. Villain makes it 25 from MP. We get 1 caller in the blinds and it’s back to me. Pot $64
I re-raise to 80 to try to iso. Villain shoves $375.
???
My thoughts: I think maybe my raise to 80 was too big? It made a min-raise by V $160, which almost commits him right there, so maybe he just shoved. I tanked, trying to find a way he would do this with QQ or AK. I had him covered easily. I couldn’t tell if he wanted a fold or if he smelled I had a big pair and was looking for value w AA. I just don’t see him doing this w QQ and obviously AK and KK is more unlikely w Hero holding KK.
Whats the play here?
Thx TPE
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
You’re right that it’s a rough spot. I wouldn’t fault a fold. More important to understand how you got into this bad spot though. You need a plan BEFORE you 4-bet. “To iso” isn’t a plan. What worse hands did you expect would call your 4-bet? What will you do if you face a shove? Your 4-bet size is fine, but of course any further raise V makes will be all in – even if you raised smaller that would/should be true – so you need to have a plan for that. If you think it will be a bad spot (as opposed to an easy call OR an easy fold) then you may want to just call the three-bet.
Think about your own range here and what incentives you are giving Villain. Why should Villain shove QQ or AK? How often are you folding after you make this 4-bet?
August 27, 2017
Raising 6.6x looks like you just want to get the chips in. He may very well have AA, however I wouldn’t count out TT JJ QQ AKs AQs or even KK just yet. There is one hand that beats you, 5 that you are ahead of and 1 your chopping with. If he seemed like he knew what he was doing in previous hands, if you have much info on him at all, you would have to make a decision based off the physical tells. I know I personally would happily pile my chips in in this spot, although I’m no pro so I could very well be losing $400. How often are you gonna fold KK pre? Are you ever folding KK pre? This spot is quite possibly the only spot folding KK pre is viable, but I know myself personally and many other players couldn’t get it in fast enough.
Also, did you end up folding? Or did you get it in?
September 29, 2014
Thanks for the replies! Foucalt: you’re right, I did not have a plan. I guess I was expecting a call or a fold, wasn’t expecting a shove lol. I was thinking most of his range would be calling or folding. I see calls w AK, QQ, JJ, TT, KQs, etc. I guess calling in that spot w KK is ok then too.
Dawson- I kind of ruled out TT, JJ, AQ,even AKo. Maybe I’m wrong, but I raised TWICE in the preflop action, and was pretty obvious (to me) that I had a legit hand of some kind. And yes I am probably saying lets get stacks in with my 4bet. I def was thinking sure lets get it in until the shove. Like Foucalt said, my “plan” was not really a plan. He seemed like a competent player, def a reg at this room (I’m not.) He started to count out the 5bet raise, then just said “I’m all in,” so I felt like he was pretty ready to raise/GII despite my action, or even because of it. His initial bet to 25 from 12 seemed to be fishing a bit too, as it’s pretty obvious I’m not folding a UTG raise to basically a 2x 3bet. He just seemed really strong to me.
I actually ended up folding. Never saw his hand. I’ve folded KK pre a couple times before but only in tournaments. I feel fine about it. But really wanted some other opinions on it because obviously it’s not something I liked doing.
Any more opinions greatly appreciated. But thx guys
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
Given your assumptions, I think 4-bet-folding is good. You get value from hands you’re ahead of (AKs, QQ, JJ, if they really do play this way) and can comfortably fold to a shove if AA is the only hand he shoves. Not saying you’re right or wrong about those assumptions (not really in a position to say), but if you’re comfortable with them, then I like your line.
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