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January 20, 2014
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Playing 2/3NL at my local card room. Max buy in is $300, I've been playing for about 2 hours and have $500 behind. Table is generally weak, limping a lot and raising when they have a hand, not bluffing much.
I pick up K
J in MP. The UTG+2 limps, I limp, and a MP player makes it $13. SB calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, and I call. Pot = $65
The SB is an older gentleman who has about $600 behind and is running really good, but I know he's a losing player. He plays loose and plays a lot of hands OOP. The UTG+2 player sat down about 10 minutes prior with about $200; he is a well dressed man in his 40's with a pressed shirt and tie. Looks like he just got off of work. Maybe a salesman or lawyer. He has limped a lot of hands but not shown anything down. MP player is a man in his 30's, looks like he is a 1/2NL player trying to move up in stakes. He doesn't seem comfortable and is playing like he is scared money.
Flop: K
J
9
SB bets $75
BB folds
UTG calls $75
Hero calls $75
MP folds
Pot = $290
Turn: Q
SB checks
UTG+2 shoves for $110
Hero ???
I feel like I played this hand horribly from the start. Maybe I should have raised for position before the flop. But I also feel like I should have raised on the flop too. Thank you for looking this over. I really appreciate it!
October 21, 2012
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Definitely raise pre.
As played, I'd make a big raise on the flop and be happy getting it in. This is close to the top of your range because you would not play KK, JJ, and maybe not even 99 like this. So besides QTs, this is the best hand you're gonna have here.
The cool thing is that they wont play those big pairs like this either, so you have very close to the effective nuts. I have been experimenting with shoving nutted hands is spots like this to make it look like a draw because people's ranges will be very strong with hands like combo draws, pair plus draws, and weaker two pairs. That might not be good with your stack, but if you had around 300 or less, I'd definitely like an overshove once the guy bets $75.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Agree with Carlos on all counts. This is a very very clear raise preflop, not just for position but because you have a good hand and will get called by worse (and by “better” that will play badly postflop, like ATo that's just going to check-fold a lot, etc.) I can't think of a single reason not to raise this against the player described (the only time I'd consider limping behind is if I thought the limper was very likely to be trapping or because I thought someone behind was likely to raise an absurdly wide range).
Flop also should just be a raise and commit your stack. What was your reason for calling? Were you thinking there were situations where you might fold later? Were you slowplaying?
FWIW Carlos $300 would just be a potsized raise, not really an overshove.
January 20, 2014
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Ok I should have raised pre then just got it in on the flop. I guess I was at the tail end of a long session and wasn’t thinking straight. I quit right after this hand. I remember thinking at the time being pretty sure that one of them was on a flush draw, and I was pretty sure that the guy behind me was going to fold. So I figured I could close the action by calling, and if a heart came then I could let this hand go without losing any more money. Then when the queen came, all I could think of was how many combinations they both could have with a ten in their range and I realized then that I had played this so bad and I didn’t know what to do.
Thank you for the insight guys. It’s times like this that makes me realize how much I still have to learn. It never stops! That is what I love about this game
~Steve
October 21, 2012
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Another thing to think about here is that if he is on a flush draw then you should probably get your bet in now while he is still willing to call with the worst of it
If you wait until the turn bricks, he may get away from his draw.
TPE Pro
December 6, 2012
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Carlos said:
Another thing to think about here is that if he is on a flush draw then you should probably get your bet in now while he is still willing to call with the worst of it
If you wait until the turn bricks, he may get away from his draw.
It's actually not as straightforward as that. There's a very interesting section of Math of Poker dealing with exactly this concept. It turns out that if you know for certain he has a flush draw and he would be correct to call a flop shove, then you do better by waiting until the turn, correctly folding when he gets there and blowing off of his equity when he misses. Of course the “knowing for certain” bit is a critical element that's missing here and in most real-world poker situations. If you incorrectly fold to AK or QT on a heart turn, that's a disaster.
October 21, 2012
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That makes sense. We dont have enough chips for his call on the flop with a flush draw to be a mistake so we should wait until the turn where it will be a mistake. Especially since we can discount AK from his flop completing range and since QT is the nuts. In hindsight, maybe his range is so weighted towards flush draws that the best line is call flop and shove blank turns.
December 24, 2013
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Foucault said:
Carlos said:
Another thing to think about here is that if he is on a flush draw then you should probably get your bet in now while he is still willing to call with the worst of it
If you wait until the turn bricks, he may get away from his draw.
It's actually not as straightforward as that. There's a very interesting section of Math of Poker dealing with exactly this concept. It turns out that if you know for certain he has a flush draw and he would be correct to call a flop shove, then you do better by waiting until the turn, correctly folding when he gets there and blowing off of his equity when he misses. Of course the “knowing for certain” bit is a critical element that's missing here and in most real-world poker situations. If you incorrectly fold to AK or QT on a heart turn, that's a disaster.
I only made it about halfway through when I borrowed it from my friend the few days before I moved, but this was my favorite part. Their expected value goes down when you play this way against a known draw of some sort. You are right, that this is a “you must know” kinda thing as the math being done is assuming those draws are all that youre playing against.
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