February 15, 2013
I play in a local $50R. 3 bullets are allowed for the 1st 3 levels and it is a 2-3 table tournament. The payout is very flat (25%). The players are very bad. I feel like I have a huge edge, but the structure is really bad. You start with 80bb (8000 chips at 50/100, 20 minute levels and there are no antes). My general feeling is I need to double up and I have a good shot to win it. My image is loose-aggressive internet kid. Most of the players are old and nitty. What is giving me difficulty is I am constantly hero called. Now the obvious answer is never bluff and always bet for value. The problem is the structure is so bad that you constantly get put in weird situations.
Example 1:
Final Table
Hero UTG, 40k effective, 3s 3c
Call 2,000 at 1,000/2,000
Folds around BB checks (He has 60k)
Most of the time I would just fold here. If you raise to 4500-5000, usually you get a call or two plus the BB. I want to play a hand in position against the BB. He is call happy and I feel like I can barrel certain flops, get value from a set, etc.
Flop
Ks Qs 2s
Villain checks. Hero bet 2200. Villain calls.
Turn
7s
Villain leads for 7,000.
When he does this I put him on either a Js, 10s or a bluff. I know he never has the As here. So I turn my hand into a bluff and make it 17,000. He tanks forever and calls. Blank on river. He checks and I shove. He tank calls with the 9s.
Looking back, I feel like when he calls turn, he always calls river. So if I am going to bluff there, I think I need to either min raise and shove river, or just shove. The min raise doesn't give me that much more fold equity on river either. I feel like if I just shove it's so polarized. The last option is to flat. The problem is this guy is the type of player that would bet like 80% of my stack on river with all of his hands. Clearly I got too involved in this hand with an average stack, but I thought I could win a good amount of chips here without showdown.
Example 2:
Final Table
7 handed. 4 pay.
UTG I raise to 7,000 with A K off at 1500/3000. 45k stack. This is the 1st level you can make a smaller raise and it is respected.
UTG +1 flats (35,000). BB calls (25,000).
Flop
Ax Kx 2x rainbow. Everyone checks. I check to give UTG+1 a chance to bluff. He is a loose-aggressive gambler. I am not concerned at all about the BB. He is very passive and will let me know if he has a hand.
Turn Jx (brings a 2nd club).
I bet 7k. UTG+1 shoves. BB folds. I call.
Villain J 10 off. River J. FML.
So this is my problem. I don't want to raise bigger. When I make it 7k, it is 15.5% of stack. 3x would be 20%. When UTG+1 flats there, it is 20% of his stack. If I am in his shoes, I am shoving or folding before the flop. At 35k, he has 11.67bb. When he puts in 7k, if he gives up he has 9.33bb with the bb coming around. If he shoves and I fold, he wins 11,500 and his stack is now 46,500 (15.5bb). When I call, the pot is 71,500 and he put in 35,000. If I raise 66-AA, broadway combos and AK-A10. I fold 66-99, AJoff, combos and A10 roughly.
Now obviously this is just a bad beat and I want him to play the hand as he did. I also am wanting everyone to understand shoving and calling ranges, because I feel like I know them way better. The bottom line is though, they don't. They are going to continue to play bad.On a KK1077 board, I can bet 2/3 of their stack on the river and they are going to tank call with 8s.
I want some feedback about how to counter bad players in situations like this. You are shallow. You are constantly hero called. You have a winning image, but everyone wants to outplay you. Thanks guys!
November 19, 2012
once you get to under 12bbs, just shove pre.
When you play with structures like this, your short stack shoving range knowledge is your edge. when you find yourself in situations like the 33 hand, just remember, if theyve hit, they're never giving up, and you can just conserve your stack and shove pre alot later with a high probability of your opponents makeing alot of folding errors.
February 15, 2013
Typically, I would agree. Online, I agree. However, full ring live when 12bb is an average stack and no antes I want to get value out of my hand. I used to play $88 hypers on Stars and have a very good understanding of calling and shoving ranges. My approach live is using some cash game techniques, such as bet-folding for value or creating a positive value by occassionally wanting a player to call your first bet to take it away later and win a much greater amount. To analyze the 33 hand, if I shove I win 3bb if everyone folds and I go from 10bb to 13bb. Play number 2, I limp, bet flop 1.1bb, villain leads turn for 3.5bb. This time instead of making a small raise and betting river, I shove and successfully get villain to fold. My stack goes from 10bb to 16.1bb. Yes, I did risk my tournament life, however my hand is not defined. I also have significantly increased my chances to win the tournament. Obviously, I did not shove like I wish I did. I think the best way to learn is to weigh the options you did not make afterwards. I took a hand that is normally folded and found out a way to get maximum value out of it, without flopping a set. My execution was incorrect. That is why it is so important to think ahead and consider all options like a great chess or soccer player. If you know what is going to happen a move or two ahead, it is best to use that information to extract value from the person who is not aware.
To continue the discussion, hand 3:
WSOP Cherokee $365 Full-Ring
Built stack to 60k from 10k at I want to say 400/800/50? level.
I am MP. UTG limps with maybe 50k stack. I flat. SB calls. BB shoves for 14kish.
I start the hand with 75bb and an M of 36.36.
I call with 77. I lose to KJ off. His shove was fine and so is my call. However, when I am that deep, do we agree it's an unnecessary risk and I am comfortable? I do like to gamble with part of my stack but feel this was a mistake.
Most Users Ever Online: 2780
Currently Online:
53 Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
bennymacca: 2616
Foucault: 2067
folding_aces_pre_yo: 1133
praetor: 1033
theginger45: 924
P-aire 146: 832
Turbulence: 768
The Riceman: 731
duggs: 591
florianm1: 588
Newest Members:
CSerpent
KJ
Tillery999
sdmathis89
ne0x00
adrianvaida2525
Forum Stats:
Groups: 4
Forums: 24
Topics: 12705
Posts: 75003
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 1063
Members: 12010
Moderators: 2
Admins: 5
Administrators: RonFezBuddy, Killingbird, Tournament Poker Edge Staff, ttwist, Carlos
Moderators: sitelock, sitelock_1