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Deciding which HUD to get, live in US...
Buckmeister88
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July 29, 2014 - 9:18 pm
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I play mostly on bovada and merge since I live in the states, love the bovada MTT’s cuz they get the best traffic. Only play certain tourneys on merge and sometimes cash on there, but would say I play more so on bovada at maybe a 60/40 split. Since it’s all anonymous on bovada and no long term stats are able to be recorded, is it still the better investment to get HEM 2 or PT4 ? ? Or go with Tournament Indicator ?

Thanx

JD
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August 2, 2014 - 5:29 pm
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First let me say I don't see a big difference between PT4 and HM2.  I have PT4 so I'm familiar with PT4 and prefer it, but if I have HM2 I'm sure I'd prefer that.  But I don't think that's what your asking.  I can give you some insight for everything else since I have it all pretty much.

 

The very best solution would be PT4/HM2 plus the Bovada Catcher from Ace Poker solutions.  You'll not only get a customizable HUD but you'll be able to review your sessions easier and search and filter for specific situations.  If reviewing and reports are you thing I would recommend getting the Bovada Convert (also from Ace PS) which will convert Bovada hand histories into PokerStars format allowing them to be uploaded …..ns/#p56947

 

This is the best, but it's also the priciest.  The small stakes PT4/HM2 license is $99 (+$70 if you want the big boy license for buy-ins over $20), the Bovada Card Cather is $40 (+$20 if you want cash games too) and the Bovada HH Converter is $16 (+$16 if you want cash+omaha).

 

The cheaper option is one of the Indicator products, which there are 2 of; Holdem and Tournament.  If you ever plan on playing any cash I would recommend Holdem Indicator since it works for both cash and tournaments.  The only thing Tournament Indicator has over Holdem Indicator is it shows how many BB you have left (and M as well).  That's nice to know, but and estimation is usually good enough and I have simple spreadsheets I can use if I ever felt that I couldn't estimate well enough.  Not having the flexibility for either cash or tournaments is huge though.  But if you never plan on playing good amounts of cash then just do the TI.

 

The price of HI or TI is 79 pounds or quids or whatever.  That's about $130.  However it says if you deposit $50 on Sportsbook.com (which the actual address is Sportsbook.au) you can get it for free.  Which is wierd because when I navigate to the poker section of that website it blocks my “juristiction” or something.  I don't get blocked from the HI/TI affiliate link.  And HI/TI says the do take US players.  Wierd.

 

So my final recommendation – if you can deposit $50 in Sportbook.com and get TI/HI for fee then do that.  Even if you'll never be able to withdrawl that's fine, you'll just be paying $50 for the HUD.  If you have to pay full quid for HI/TI then it's better to go with PT4/HM2 + the card cather.  

 

PT4 has a free trail but it's not fully functional I think.    Every other program I mentioned is fully function during the trail.  I would recommend trying each for a couple days.  Do something like HI for one weekend, TI the next, then HM2/PT4 + card catcher after (don't forget to save your HH so you'll have a decent sample incase you want to try the HH converter).  Get a feel then decide where to commit your money to.

JD
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August 2, 2014 - 5:33 pm
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Ah crap.  I just saw that the Tournament version of the card catcher isn't quite ready yet, only the cash version.  So, um, like, ah…..nevermind what I said before.

 

I did use the cash version and it worked well, and the tournament version should be available soon.

jasonchr
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August 3, 2014 - 7:28 am
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One other consideration is that PT4 no longer shows all of the hole cards (from Bovada HHs) when using the HH converter. For whatever reason, they've stopped supporting that functionality. So if that feature is important to you, HM is the only option. 

 

Like JD said, Holdem Indicator is definitely the way to go in terms of a HUD. I've been trying out Card Catcher as well but it seems to still be a bit buggy so I would wait a while – but I think it could end up replacing Holdem Indicator down the road.

JD
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August 3, 2014 - 8:42 am
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jasonchr said:

One other consideration is that PT4 no longer shows all of the hole cards (from Bovada HHs) when using the HH converter. For whatever reason, they've stopped supporting that functionality. So if that feature is important to you, HM is the only option. 

 

Like JD said, Holdem Indicator is definitely the way to go in terms of a HUD. I've been trying out Card Catcher as well but it seems to still be a bit buggy so I would wait a while – but I think it could end up replacing Holdem Indicator down the road.

That's wierd, I've read something like that in the support forum on 2+2.  However I'm using the latest PT4 version 4.11.10 and the latest Bovada Converter version 1.0.33 and I have no issues with that.  I know that they recommend a specific older version of HM2 for this reason.  Maybe at one time they killed the function but recently brought it back?  IDK, but my set up works.

jasonchr
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August 3, 2014 - 9:12 am
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Hmm, that's interesting. I will give it a try again – that would be great if it works since I prefer the design of PT4.

Buckmeister88
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August 5, 2014 - 8:42 pm
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Awesome thanks guys for the time and answers, appreciate that. Wanted to get some feedback on that. Am most likely leaning towards getting HM2 or PT4 tho just cuz it’s an overall better experience I think. (Know both of u guys going to say PT4 since u both use it, wouldn’t mind hearing some selling points tho lol)

So now I think it’s going to come down to picking between those two, then the possibility of getting the card catcher on top of that. ESP since I do play on merge an decent amount and would be able to keep long term stats on players. Also was thinking of getting an account at americas best card room (esp after I heard about the $1M gtd tourney they gonna have at the end of the year).

JD
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August 8, 2014 - 12:38 am
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Well it seems that PT4 will allow you to import opponent hole cards (through the converter) while HM2 won't (except for older versions).  If that's the case then I think PT4 is the clear choice of you.  If not for that then it's a toss up.

 

Another thing to consider is that the Indicator products do keep a database.  You'll be able to keep long term stats for player on Merge, but they will be very limited (vpip/pfr, steal and fold to steal, cb and fold to cb, went to showdown and won at showdown, AF, net total winnings and # of hands).   It does have a session reviewer/hand replayer, but you won't be able to filter out for spots or do any reports.  But it does keep stats on everyone.

ttwist

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August 8, 2014 - 11:24 am
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im also thinking about installing a HUD, lots of good opinion here…

Buckmeister88
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August 11, 2014 - 3:13 am
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Awesome thx again. Ttwist, thanx for adding in as well. Sine you too are thinking of getting a hud, have u had one version in mind or that you maybe slightly favor over the rest ? Think it’d be cool to get some input from an experienced and successful online pro who hasn’t used a hud before but is now looks for one. Maybe what grabs ur eye about one or the other.

JD and Jason: wats your guys set up looking like ? Does ur PC really have to be what the websites “recommend” as far as specs go to run HM2/PT4 ?

ttwist

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August 12, 2014 - 10:21 am
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Buckmeister88 said:

Awesome thx again. Ttwist, thanx for adding in as well. Sine you too are thinking of getting a hud, have u had one version in mind or that you maybe slightly favor over the rest ? Think it'd be cool to get some input from an experienced and successful online pro who hasn't used a hud before but is now looks for one. Maybe what grabs ur eye about one or the other.

JD and Jason: wats your guys set up looking like ? Does ur PC really have to be what the websites “recommend” as far as specs go to run HM2/PT4 ?

i had HM2 given to me to try by the fine people over there and i used it for a few months and my trial ran out, I was pleased with its capabilities and found it to be a useful tool and im thinking of installing it again. il keep ya posted!

JD
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August 14, 2014 - 1:42 pm
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Another thing to consider is with the Indicator products your license is only good for one computer. About 6 months ago I got a new laptop and had to email them to activated my license. Recently I upgraded to an SSD (which is freaking amazing btw) and had to get a new license again. Now I’m thinking about building a gaming PC that I would use for poker too, but if I move the license to that machine I would have to move it back to my laptop when I go visit family during the holidays then move it back again. Pain in the ass.

I just confirmed with Ace Poker Solutions that they’re product license are good for 2 machines, just like PT4 and HM2. I’m thinking about getting the card catcher just so I don’t have to deal with moving the Indicator license.

EllDan
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August 14, 2014 - 2:19 pm
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Awesome thx again. Ttwist, thanx for adding in as well. Sine you too are thinking of getting a hud, have u had one version in mind or that you maybe slightly favor over the rest ? Think it’d be cool to get some input from an experienced and successful online pro who hasn’t used a hud before but is now looks for one. Maybe what grabs ur eye about one or the other.

JD and Jason: wats your guys set up looking like ? Does ur PC really have to be what the websites “recommend” as far as specs go to run HM2/PT4 ?

Built a grinding PC two years ago. If you are going to be multitabling I would def recommend an SSD. It is amazingly fast compared to standard hard drive. Cost a bit more but well worth it. Good luck.

JD
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August 14, 2014 - 2:28 pm
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As far as my rig about 2 years ago I got a piece of crap laptop for $300 at Best Buy.  It had a Pentium B960 with 4gb of RAM.  I had it connected to a 1080p external monitor, but sometimes I used it in dual monitor mode.  Since I'm on Bovada the max tables that will fit on a 1080p screen is 6 that is the most tables I've used (occasionally 9 tables with the extra on the second monitor).  The HUD I used was the Holdem Indicator, but I did have PT4 installed but only used it to track results and run reports.  I've never had any issue with it.  The only reason I upgraded was because I wanted on with a 1080p screen (so I can play 6 tables while traveling).  I've never had any problems running other programs too, usually streaming Netflix towards the end of a session when I'm in one or two tournaments.  I can't say for certain that I could do that many tables with PT4 + card cather instead of HI, or that 20 tables would bring everything to a screeching halt, but I'm pretty sure it would be able to handle it.  But I wouldn't go any lower than that.  For example Celerons would be out, as well as the low voltage versions of Pentiums.  I have no way to qualify this but I think if you search for a processor on …..hmark.net/ and it has a score of 1800+ that would be the bare minimun.  And I'm sure any modern desktop processor that retails for more than $70 would be fine too, although I would recommend Intel over AMD.  So in summary you can get away with a mobile pentium (just make sure its not a low or ultra low voltage version), but to be safe go with an i3+.  If you have a set up really old it might be worth it to upgrade.

 

What I have now is a laptop with an 15-4200u 6gb RAM, and I didn't really notice a difference for what I use it for compared to the B960.  Recently SSDs have become insanely cheap so I replaced the HDD, and I notice a huge difference.   My machine feels so much faster.  It boots up in about 10 seconds compared to over 90.  Programs load instantly.  I would highly recommend one.  PT4 says the bottleneck is usually the hard drive and normally an SSD upgrade will give you the best performance increase.  

Buckmeister88
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August 14, 2014 - 10:37 pm
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Nice heads up JD about the licenses per machine for the indicator. If that’s not a nail in the coffin I don’t know what is lol. About the SSD being the bottleneck cure I had read that it is best to have one, good to hear from a TPE member about it first hand though. Thinking of getting a new laptop within the next few months. Probably going to get a nice laptop with at least an i5 and 1TB HDD with a SSD for grinding. So now I’m definitely going with the HM2/PT4 route, with the card catcher in tandem. Makes sense for them to put a 2 machine license on their software since it has to go hand in hand with another program.

Now I just have to decide: HM2 or PT4.

One thing that is kinda weighing on my decision, is the multiple apps that you can get with HM2. Here’s the thing, I’m not quite sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing. Could be good cuz it offers other side programs that help you in numerous ways. While possibly being bad because each app and extra feature you want is going to cost MORE MONEY $$$. I know that PT4 has the one app, TableTracker (which presumably is close to the same idea as Table Scanner), but that would be less money than going to route of HM2 + apps. And that’s not even saying that you have ALL the apps for it either. The note caddy and table ninja seem interesting as well. Although, PT4 states that their software comes with a note tracker, leak tracker, and an equity calculator included for no extra cost.

JD, do these features help with your PT4 experience or do you use them much ? If these are comparable to the HM2 apps but minus all the extra expenses that would almost definitely lead to getting PT4. Thanks again.

JD
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August 15, 2014 - 3:48 am
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My new laptop came with a 750gb hard drive and a DVD drive, so here's what I did; bought a Samsung 840 Evo 256gb SSD, transfered the contents of my hard drive onto the SSD (the Samsung software made it stupid easy, then replace the hard drive with the SSD.  When booting up with the SSD it was exactly like my hard drive (some programs and such).  Then I bought a hard drive bay designed to go into the DVD drive bay (for $20), replaced the DVD drive with the hard drive bay, then installed the old hard drive into the hard drive bay.  Now I have the best of both worlds, a 256gb SSD and a 750gb 2nd hard drive.  

 

As far as the apps, I here NoteTracker is a poor ripoff of NoteCaddy.  TableTracker and Table Scanner are essentially the same thing but it's not free, it costs $15, $25, or $35 a month depending on stakes.  The equity calculator is just like Poker Stove but with Omaha.  The ICM calculator is very basic, not really much better than this site …..cmcalc.php.  It's possible I just don't know how to use it, but I'm sure ICMizer would be much better for studying final table ICM decisions.  Leak Tracker isn't anything special.  It just goes through some of your stats by position and tells you if you are in the range that winning players in your stakes are.  For example it says I fold to flop bets too much.  That doesn't really help my game much.  Just about every other stat is within the 'winning player' range.  But none of those things really apply to me since almost all of my play in on Bovada.  No player can use any of those tools there, and I kinda like it like that.  Sure you could use it them on Merge, but is there enough traffic on Merge to justify the extra costs?  Could you really pick and choose the tables you want to play at, or would you normally just play whats available (like Ultimate Poker in Nevada).  On Bovada you'll never get enough hands where the advance stats or tools will be useful at all.  I recommend PT4 only because I can import opponent hole cards and I'm pretty sure that cant be done on HM2 (unless you use and older version).

m@ddm@n
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August 15, 2014 - 10:25 pm
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Just a quick opinion by me. I originally used pt4 for a few years and then changed to hm2 about 2 years ago.
I mostly changed because most of the tpe content is by players/pros using hm2 and it also seems to be the preferred option across the board generally. Note caddy is great and I like being able to copy some layouts and stats I see in the vids.
There was also a great series a while ago on hm2 and how to utilise it so check the archives!
Hm2 has a cloud backup option as well which is great to transfer hand histories to my laptop if i want to review them on my lunch break. (I can just restore via the net.)

Overall, both are pretty similar, but using the same as most tpe pros is a big advantage to me.

Buckmeister88
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August 19, 2014 - 8:02 pm
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Damn JD ur a tech beast !!! Maybe one day I’ll get a setup that’s as sick as yours. =) But hey if I can bink a nice score who knows.
Did just pick up a new laptop though on a nice sale, its a HP 15.6″ with an AMD A10 with 750gb HDD with 6gs of RAM for only $600 !!! Couldn’t miss out on that, especially since it was be used primarily for grinding. Might add an SSD sometime in the future.

So now just going through the trials of both HM2 and PT4. In HM2 is it normal to have your stats (hero stats) show different stats at all the tables you are playing while multi-tabling ? Noticed a slight difference from table to table, but I’ve only been using trial for a few days now. Am I correct in assuming that the “newness” of the HUD and database is what is causing this ? Want to make sure I’m getting all the right information since this could be happening with other players stats too.

Buckmeister88
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August 20, 2014 - 11:23 pm
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Just a quick opinion by me. I originally used pt4 for a few years and then changed to hm2 about 2 years ago.
I mostly changed because most of the tpe content is by players/pros using hm2 and it also seems to be the preferred option across the board generally. Note caddy is great and I like being able to copy some layouts and stats I see in the vids.
There was also a great series a while ago on hm2 and how to utilise it so check the archives!
Hm2 has a cloud backup option as well which is great to transfer hand histories to my laptop if i want to review them on my lunch break. (I can just restore via the net.)

Overall, both are pretty similar, but using the same as most tpe pros is a big advantage to me.

Thanks m@ddm@n for the heads up. I am currently watching the series and am in my 30 day trial for HM2. I think you make a valid point, in the fact that it is what a big advantage to have the same software as the pros here. Not only can they understand and visualize what u are talking about but they might also be able to gave u pointers. The video series is pretty huge too if u never used a HUD before (like me). Think its just a win win and better for your money both ways.

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