Some of the most common questions we hear at Tournament Poker Edge revolve around backing and getting backed. Should I look to get backed? How do i go about getting backed? And so on. Additionally, with the current state of poker in the US, many backers have been left in a particular challenging spot. Some are dealing with having mass amounts of money online. Others are dealing with a stable of horses that can no longer play. And some have had to deal with horses just straight up stealing from them.
We recently sat down with Paul “Zima421” Dlugozima to try and give you a bit of a “behind the scenes” look at running a staking organization. You can find a link to Paul’s staking thread on 2+2 here.
Can you tell us a little bit about your poker background?
I started playing poker in college with friends. We played 5 dollar homegames pretty much every night of the week. I seemed to be doing well in them so I decided to put $50 online on party. I kept winning SNGs on Party, but my account balance never seemed to go up. After a while I figured out I was just playing Step SNGs. After losing my $50 on Party I decided to try FTP out. I did well on FTP for a while and eventually deposited on Stars as well. I played unbacked for the first part of my playing “career”. After a while, I wanted to play a bit bigger then my roll allowed, so started to try and find a backer. I was fortunate to find a backer that would put me in higher games that I was probably not ready for in hindsight. I never made a profit for this backer and was eventually dropped when the backer had to get rid of most of his stable. I came to the conclusion that I didn’t want to put the effort in to become a great poker player, but instead could maybe start a stable and make money that way.
I currently have a stable of 47 guys. My staking partner is Elio “smokrokflock” Fox. We have been working together since August 2010. During this time we have staked around 150 different people ranging from $2 180’s on stars up to the WCOOP Main Event.
How did you first get in to staking?
I started staking around February of 2009. Stars was running a reload promotion at the time. I believe it was 100% on $700, so I decided to put $700 on just to get the “free” money. At the time, I was backed myself for MTTs and SNGs, but would get to keep this bonus if i made the deposit and cashed the money out right away. I was living with a friend who had a Stars account, so as soon as I soon as I deposited,I sent him my 700 just to hold onto. I couldn’t cash-out the money right away because of a Stars policy (have to clear a certain amount of VPPs before cashing out). I was chatting with one of my friends (who was also backed at the time) and we threw around the idea of maybe staking a few people with the $700. He was a friend who lived near me, so next time I saw him, he gave me $350 cash and we were equal partners in this new staking fund.
When we were starting up this fund, it was right when the 2+2 Marketplace (MP) was beginning. It was basically just my partner (Pageh656) and I in there with a few other stakers. We basically got 95% of the applications that were sent out (or so it seemed). Our first horse actually came not from the 2+2 thread, but from a friend of a friend. He was a really solid player who landed on tough times (like lots of horses) and just needed a stake to get back on his feet. We staked him for $3.40 10 man SNGs on stars. The deal included all his rakeback and promotions. I am pretty sure this is right when Battle of Planets (a Stars SNG promotion) started, and our new horse was killing the games. He was making decent money at the tables, but most of the profit we made off him was from the BoP leaderboard. From this one micro horse, we got a small roll going of around $3000-$5000, and just kept building up small from there.
Did you start with a small stable, or did you determine early on that you wanted to stake a large number of horses?
Page and I just wanted to try and make as much money as possible. We had no real plans, but just wanted to keep making smart investments to try and get ourselves in the best position to make as much money as possible.
It took us a while before we could even stake people at the $12 180 level. We were very nitty with our bankroll. We didn’t ever want to re-deposit to keep the stable going. I think we had around $20,000 in our account and another $20,000 in horses accounts before we even thought about putting people in $12 180s on Stars. I have a lot of friends and know of a lot of people who were too aggressive with their bankroll and ended up going bust from staking too many guys or staking to high for their bankroll.
What buy in levels do you stake people at?
Elio and I now stake people for anything offered online. We stake a few people in some live events, but try to stay away from live staking at this time. Hopefully in the future we will be able to stake people in the live arena, but there is a lot that goes into that other than just bankroll considerations.
We will most likely have a few guys in PCA side events and the PCA Main Event, but that will only be for our biggest horses (we currently have 3 guys who play all MTTs offered on Stars)
For some of the horses who have been with us for a while, are hard working, and are doing well for us, we sometimes put them in local live events that they want to play.
What do you look for in a horse? Are things like volume and references more important than ROI, or do you simply look for the best players you can find?
It all depends on what level they are looking to be staked at. Obviously if they have references, that is a plus, but a lot of the lower stakes guys just don’t have the networking or contacts needed. There is usually a phase of trust building that each new horse has to go through.
If a horse comes to us (Elio and myself) and wants to play HSMTTs, we will probably need a few references.
How do you deal with horses who’s volume drops off for one reason or another?
We just try and talk to them and see why. We have probably dealt with pretty much every single scenario in terms of this. Some people just get tired of the game. If this is the case, we just encourage them to put more volume in and tell them we feel they are good and can make money. A lot of horses lose sight of the fact that they are an investment and for us to invest time and money into them, we believe in them and want them to do the best they can do. Obviously we will make money off of them, but they too will make money if we do.
Sometimes horses volume drops off for reasons we cant control. Family issues and personal issues seem to be the 2 main factors that volume drops off. Sometimes you cant control these things, but just be there to support them and hopefully they show the same loyalty back when they are ready to play.
How do you deal with horses who get deep into makeup?
Ride the variance coaster till it swings back in the right direction.
We also work with the horse on certain aspects of their game. We try and encourage them to actually work on their game rather then just continually mashing buttons everyday. There are a ton of ways to get better if you aren’t lazy.
What is the most common reason for dropping a horse?
Stealing
Do you ever sell horses makeup and can you talk a little bit about this process? What is the standard % at which you sell horses?
I am trying to think, but I don’t think Elio and I have ever sold a horse other than when Black Friday happened. We were pretty much forced into selling horses in that situation though, and would have never done it otherwise. I am pretty sure Page and I never sold a horse either.
I have bought horses MU before, and its a pretty tedious process most of the time. It’s a business and both sides want what is best for themselves (talking about both backers involved in the deal). I have bought horses from 15% of their total MU to around 25% of their total MU. I have bought around 6 horse’s MU up to now, and I am sure there will be more in the future. As far as how to determine what is the correct way to value MU, I don’t really think there is an exact science. As a backer, you just need to try and get it for as cheap as possible.
Most of the time when I buy someone’s MU, I also cut a little bit of the MU number off for the horse. Lets say someones MU is $23,752, and they play up to 162’s and 20 rebuys. I buy their MU for $5,000. I would most likely cut their MU down to $20,000. The reason for this is to just create some loyalty right off the start and make sure the horse feels like he is also getting something out of the deal. I know I am giving up some equity if I do this, but feel its the right thing to do long term for the longevity of the staking agreement.
There seems to be a higher occurence since Black Friday of backers having issues with horses. We have seen stories about horses disappearing, playing games they are not supposed to, degening off money, etc. What are the most common issues backers have with horses and just how common are they?
It’s hard to say what the most common issue is. The top three are (in no particular order):
1. Playing games not allowed.
Some horses just think “hey, I am gonna play this MTT, this one is about the same skill level, so i am gonna add this”. or they just think they are good enough to play whatever game and just play it cause they feel they are +EV. It’s pretty frustrating to outline exactly what they are allowed to play, then find them playing different things.
2. Horses stealing for rent/food/whatever.
This might be the most frustrating thing stakers have to deal with. Most of the time, if the horse just asked me, I would loan them the money (and add to MU accordingly) and it would solve all the problems. If we are staking someone and we feel they are a decent winner in the games, we will loan them money (most of the time).
I would say I have staked around 450-500 different people since I started staking, and I have been stolen from by around 25 horses.
3. Horses playing just the peak of their buying range and not grinding at all.
When things go well, people usually grind all day every day. They get as much volume as they can and just love poker! When things go bad, they play all the hyper turbos and turbos, the big freeze-outs they are allowed to play and just don’t put any effort into their game. This isn’t really “stealing” from the backers, but it is awful for the backers. It can sometimes be hard to motivate people who are in this routine. I haven’t found the answer yet to get people motivated in this regard.
How do you feel about publicly “outing” horses who have screwed over a backer?
It all really depends on how the horse treats the situation. If a horse is doing what he can to try and pay back, then I usually give the benefit of the doubt and give them time and don’t out them to the community. If a horse is being arrogant about the debt and doesn’t seem to care, I will out them. Of course there are different scenarios where I feel its correct to out them right away, but its more of a “case by case” basis type thing.
Also, if the horse stole from me and is actively looking for a stake, I tell them I have to let the new backer know of the situation.
What advice would you give to someone looking for backing?
When looking for backing, just be honest. If you can only play 15 hours a week, let the backer know this. When you send your application in, just fill out what the backer wants to know. If you put 0 effort into your application, don’t expect too much in return.
What advice would you give someone looking to start backing people?
Good luck. Better have a big bankroll.